but they had a pretty good article in this issue, and I'm including a link, in case anyone else would like to read it. I don't know all of ya'lls feelings on the state of surveying, but I feel we are loosing the ART of surveying, we barely have old surveyors mentor young guys any longer, and so many skills, tips, tricks, and other old ways are being lost, replaced by words in a classroom and a timed test.
http://www.pobonline.com/articles/100720-surveyors-footsteps-heirs-to-the-surveyors-cache
[USER=11913]@Monte[/USER]
Thanks for the link. The quote below is disturbing in the sense of "education". Perhaps an Associates degree in Business Management and six, or however many years, field experience would be a better alternative.
"As professionals, us old dogs came up through the system learning at the feet of Joe Socrates, PLS, and his contemporaries. Technology has made life easier no doubt, but it has also cut down on the employee pool so that when lean times came, we ended up with some of the chiefs but no Indians. Those who were laid off drifted away and few came back. Add to this the requirement for a college degree in order to sit for the licensure test in many states and we arrive at few licensed land surveyors and a disappearing transfer of knowledge from the old guild members to devoted apprentices."
:smarty:
I believe that this business of "the average age of surveyors" is overblown. So the average age may be 57. The average age of realtors is 53. I don't hear anyone complaining about that. However, I do agree that the lack of mentoring is going to be a problem. We've got people getting licenses that don't know their rear end from a hole in the ground. While that always was a problem, it seems to be getting worse.
I was told there were no new resident first time licensees in LA last year.
Tommy Young, post: 408919, member: 703 wrote: I believe that this business of "the average age of surveyors" is overblown. So the average age may be 57. The average age of realtors is 53. I don't hear anyone complaining about that. However, I do agree that the lack of mentoring is going to be a problem. We've got people getting licenses that don't know their rear end from a hole in the ground. While that always was a problem, it seems to be getting worse.
The problem with average age is, it increases by 1 every year. We aren't getting kids in the pipeline at a rate to fill future needs. The demands of Surveying are light years beyond real estate, not to mention you can make a realtor in months. Solid Surveyors take over a decade at a bare minimum.
In my opinion we have made a huge mistake with the 4 year degree push. There is a valid path that leans more heavily on experience. I know, I am on it.
EXACTLY the argument for providing tuition reimbursement for your field crew personnel. (assuming the data is good)
also, i'm 43. i won't complain about an increase in market share by default if this is, in fact, the case.
reality probably is in the ballpark, though, that technology will decrease the need for registrants in quantity.
Tommy Young, post: 408919, member: 703 wrote: I believe that this business of "the average age of surveyors" is overblown. So the average age may be 57. The average age of realtors is 53. I don't hear anyone complaining about that. However, I do agree that the lack of mentoring is going to be a problem. We've got people getting licenses that don't know their rear end from a hole in the ground. While that always was a problem, it seems to be getting worse.
Not knowing your rear end from a hole in the ground is not half as bad as Not Knowing that you Don't Know your rear end from a hole in the ground. I believe those are the most dangerous individuals out there.
Until all of us have no problem getting what we actually believe our services are worth, and there's no one undercutting us, and we're still too busy to handle all of the calls and work coming in, and I'm driving a new truck, until then, I don't see dwindling numbers that I'm overly concerned with.
I enjoyed the article, but I have mixed feelings about the sentiments expressed. We've all been getting old since the ark ran aground. Sometimes I think the prevalence of this subject is merely due to the fact that so many of us are aging and all that is coming up the pike is younger surveyors. But it's always been that way.
When my old PC Jim Dycus "taught" me something it usually included a cuss word. If he had to remind me about something I "learned" it might have included the use of a boot. Most of the 'old' procedures weren't bestowed upon us in ceremony, they were presented in repetition. When we were young we picked up these things out of necessity. And although all the 'old ones' we knew are gone, we now have assumed the role of "sage".
Over the years I have presented my way of surveying to my employees just as was done 47 years ago. We have new tools, yes, but we have tasks that are exactly the same. And whether we will collectively admit it or not, all that has really changed is that we are aging. And the closer we get to the edge of the bell-shaped curve of aging it is only logical that those that replace us will be younger. And they too will learn.
One thing that I have noticed over the last twenty years is younger surveyors that are willing to ask questions. There are at least a dozen surveyors that have either worked for or with me over the years that still call me for advice. I don't think that use to happen much forty years ago. In my mind I attribute this to the fact that although we don't work with 4 man crews anymore (where many could observe and learn), those that continue on to licensure still exhibit the need for some experienced advice.
Hey, at least the average age of surveyors isn't down around 22 or 23...
Monte, post: 408896, member: 11913 wrote: but they had a pretty good article in this issue, and I'm including a link, in case anyone else would like to read it. I don't know all of ya'lls feelings on the state of surveying, but I feel we are loosing the ART of surveying, we barely have old surveyors mentor young guys any longer, and so many skills, tips, tricks, and other old ways are being lost, replaced by words in a classroom and a timed test.
http://www.pobonline.com/articles/100720-surveyors-footsteps-heirs-to-the-surveyors-cache
Mr. Turner's articles in POB are my favorite. Not that anyone cares..
N10,000, E7,000, Z100.00
PLS - IL, MO, AR, KS, MN, KY
If things are left alone I believe the law of supply and demand will increase our income and in turn make our profession more attractive.
There may be less mentoring. I don't doubt that. I'm working solo, so I'm not passing on anything except for my tech support and training. When I do make the decision to bring someone in, you can bet that the individual I find will need to show a lot of potential. I have no time for lackeys.
paden cash, post: 408931, member: 20 wrote: One thing that I have noticed over the last twenty years is younger surveyors that are willing to ask questions. There are at least a dozen surveyors that have either worked for or with me over the years that still call me for advice. I don't think that use to happen much forty years ago. In my mind I attribute this to the fact that although we don't work with 4 man crews anymore (where many could observe and learn), those that continue on to licensure still exhibit the need for some experienced advice.
And forums such as this one are extraordinarily effective in that quest.
I have been in the surveying business for 30 years. What I find attractive and satisfying about this line of work will also continue to attract others. But those same attributes keep others from ever considering such a line of work. The combination of physical and mental taxing work with exposure to environmental elements is not for everyone. Some even find it demeaning. Its not easy money and you will most likely never be considered rich. But I, like all of you, love it. I find it extremely rewarding when I stakeout to a calculated position where a corner should be and actually find it. I find it exciting digging through old deeds and maps, looking through the works of those who came before me and what they found at the site long before I was even born. I enjoy problem solving in the field and in the office. Others.... not so much. I have two boys of my own. A part of me would love it if either one of them wanted to become a surveyor. The other part of me knows the struggle.
BushAxe, post: 408937, member: 11897 wrote: I have been in the surveying business for 30 years. What I find attractive and satisfying about this line of work will also continue to attract others. But those same attributes keep others from ever considering such a line of work. The combination of physical and mental taxing work with exposure to environmental elements is not for everyone. Some even find it demeaning. Its not easy money and you will most likely never be considered rich. But I, like all of you, love it. I find it extremely rewarding when I stakeout to a calculated position where a corner should be and actually find it. I find it exciting digging through old deeds and maps, looking through the works of those who came before me and what they found at the site long before I was even born. I enjoy problem solving in the field and in the office. Others.... not so much. I have two boys of my own. A part of me would love it if either one of them wanted to become a surveyor. The other part of me knows the struggle.
So true. It takes a rare individual to find this sort of work appealing. Yesterday I had to push through a thousand feet of some of the worst briars I've seen so that I could get to the back of a tract to then calculate a equal area division of the tract. I sat on a log in a pipeline right-of-way for 20 minutes, running the numbers and checking them twice. In the middle of that, I felt a tick crawling on my lower back, right below my belt line. Then I had to push back through the same briar patch to get back to the truck. Left the job a little before 7pm, watching the moon rise. I was tired, but the job was finished and I knew I did a good job for the client and that the client will be paying me good money for the work.
My idea is to require a degree, but any degree would sufficient to meet the requirement. You could add some minimum LS specific courses in addition to the degree.
We aren't big enough as a group to support dedicated degree programs, especially engineering degrees.
My other idea is...Law Schools are spitting out twice as many JDs as the legal profession needs...so hire hungry JD grads. Attract the ones that like outdoor work and lure them in knowing maybe that education will be of some use to them in the future. At least more so than manager of the local McDonalds.
With the internet information and education is easier to get than ever before. Granted a lot of it, maybe most of it, is junk. Good information generally isn't free or cheap. The newer good information is available for free but it isn't necessarily organized with convenient indexes. College grads should know how to do quality research. Our work is not rocket science, much of the knowledge can be had fairly cheaply as opposed to past generations.
This is what I've learned in the law library. There is so much quality information available for free, you just have to learn how to access it. At home I can use google scholar but what case am I looking for? At the law library I can use the commercial indexes, get a file full of cases or headnotes and read it in my easy chair at home. I've got a file full of headnotes under DEEDS, 1000 of them organized into convenient headings, what do you need, particular words and terms, control of monuments, Plats and field notes? I also have BOUNDARIES. In two minutes I got all of the Wyoming cases under BOUNDARIES. In five minutes I got all of the headnotes of Wash, Or, and Idaho under BOUNDARIES. Imagine how little no it took Curt Brown to find all of that.
The manual print version of that was called a Digest which is a set of books that was produced with headnotes under various legal topics. The library might have that for your State but not the entire country.
Quite a rambling article, but I will ultimately address the issues.
First question, as a comparison, what is the average age of college professors?
Assuming as a minimum the beginning age of a surveyor, 4 year degree, 4 years experience, is 25.
57 - 25 = 27, 57 + 27 = 84. How many 84 year olds are sill licensed? Let's set the typical cutoff age at 75/.
I assert that the license pool is tilted due to the many experience only surveyors that over the past 20 years, took, and retook and retook until they passed the survey exam that was meant for well educated candidates. I would give them a starting age of 45, not too far off the current average. It is hard to determine the pool of that type of candidates remaining.
I cannot say that a 4 year survey course is an extreme, I have 42 surveying credits, zero of PLSS credits, and cannot say what out of that 42 could be eliminated. Some 2 year programs offer up to 36 credits with 30 the norm and wonder what those students think they know that they actually don't know. Any less, results in dangerous outcomes. Assuming that education is now well covered, what is lacking is qualifying experience. It is dangerous to assume that a degree and 4 years on the job is equal to 4 years experience. In most companies it is merely 1 year of experience repeated 4 times. Mentoring is not occurring in most companies and it is time to make it a worthwhile endeavor and at the same time eliminate a less than worthwhile endeavor, continuing education. I consider it an insult that with all those college credits I must pay to learn bare snippets of knowledge from approved providers solely to maintain my right to work.
First choice is that if I take another college credit course, the value of that three credits does not disappear in 2 short years. At a minimum an approved college course should cover at least 2 license cycles. Colleges should in turn prepare certain course material for existing professionals on a 1 credit bite basis. Not mere minimal courses but practical and difficult case studies. That is a weekend or two full day basis. Practically every MBA program includes such in their curriculums today.
Second choice, any surveyor with 10 or more years experience should be required to instead, put in time mentoring, not getting a ton of CEUs. Any licensee of 20 years and/or 65 years of age being allowed to mentor only for all CE credits. The state boards in conjunction with colleges must establish mentoring academies to hone and test mentoring skills. I learned in my years as a youth and then adult scout leader that one can improve his education while teaching others and that even the least knowledgeable person can still teach you something back.
Thirdly the Boards must take seriously what is responsible charge and experience.
Fourth, NCEES and/or state boards need to adopt an experience testing format. surveying is more than an educational skill it is a practical art.
Paul in PA
BushAxe, post: 408937, member: 11897 wrote: Some even find it demeaning
What could possibly be demeaning about crawling around on your hands & knees in mud, tangled up in a giant multiflora rose, looking for a stinkin' old pipe in a pile of brake shoes & nasty old tin cans with your 65-year-old butt crack sticking up in the air for the nosy old-lady-neighbor to ogle while she's interrogating you about your purpose for being there?
"Dave Karoly, post: 408942, member: 94"]My idea is to require a degree, but any degree would sufficient to meet the requirement. You could add some minimum LS specific courses in addition to the degree."
The minimum education required far exceeds a few courses.
"We aren't big enough as a group to support dedicated degree programs, especially engineering degrees."
Do you intend to eliminate 100% of the survey programs, or is 50% enough. The group that requires surveying services is the whole of the United States.
"My other idea is...Law Schools are spitting out twice as many JDs as the legal profession needs...so hire hungry JD grads. Attract the ones that like outdoor work and lure them in knowing maybe that education will be of some use to them in the future. At least more so than manager of the local McDonalds."
Every Law School has at least 4 courses that should be required of surveyors. I consider I have the minimum, 2-3 credit Business Law courses, 1 credit Small Business Law course, 3 credits Legal Research and 3 credits Real Estate Law, plus the 6 credits of Boundary Law survey courses.
So Hurray for Law Schools.
Paul in PA
The manual print version of that was called a Digest which is a set of books that was produced with headnotes under various legal topics. The library might have that for your State but not the entire country. If you want to read the case you go get the regional reporter book and find it. You can't take it home so you sit there in the library and take notes on legal pads. Now I can take home the cases in PDF form and read them.
Paul in PA, post: 408949, member: 236 wrote: "Dave Karoly, post: 408942, member: 94"]My idea is to require a degree, but any degree would sufficient to meet the requirement. You could add some minimum LS specific courses in addition to the degree."
The minimum education required far exceeds a few courses.
"We aren't big enough as a group to support dedicated degree programs, especially engineering degrees."
Do you intend to eliminate 100% of the survey programs, or is 50% enough. The group that requires surveying services is the whole of the United States.
"My other idea is...Law Schools are spitting out twice as many JDs as the legal profession needs...so hire hungry JD grads. Attract the ones that like outdoor work and lure them in knowing maybe that education will be of some use to them in the future. At least more so than manager of the local McDonalds."
Every Law School has at least 4 courses that should be required of surveyors. I consider I have the minimum, 2-3 credit Business Law courses, 1 credit Small Business Law course, 3 credits Legal Research and 3 credits Real Estate Law, plus the 6 credits of Boundary Law survey courses.
So Hurray for Law Schools.
Paul in PA
Dude, it's not an extreme world. I don't propose to eliminate anything.
I definitely think there should be some sort of educational requirement just as a practical matter. I would be realistic and make it fit the needs of the profession and public. It would be great if every Surveyor knew how to hand calculate the trajectory of a Saturn 5 to the moon or hand calculate a static vector but is that really necessary?
I also think Boundary should be restricted to those with an actual adequate education in it but that isn't going to happen, I'm a realist.