Kevin Hines, post: 385838, member: 8489 wrote: Dennis Mouland was the speaker at the 2015 Mississippi Association of Professional Surveyors Convention that hit home on this matter. He stressed the importance of taking into account the technology used, and the standards at the time of parcel creation, when deciding on accepting or rejecting corners. He makes the distinction of being a surveyor or just an expert measurer. Great presentation that is well worth your time. Maybe Amber can get him scheduled as a speaker for the next ASPS conference (?).
I've met Dennis and listened to him speak several times. He's got a great presentation over several topics with a good sense of humor and talent for speaking. His experience is unique that he has worked both sides of the BLM/private portions of our profession. If you ever get the chance to sit in and listen to him you'd better. Three years ago, after an aggravating bout with knee surgery, he confided he wasn't sure how much longer he'd be "doing the circuit". Glad to hear he's still around.
Dennis has a consulting business and is still on the circuit. Look him up at Witness Tree Consulting dot com.
Maybe set up some sort of voluntary hands-on school/certification, where various concepts could be taught? Put the old equipment in the hands of the new/learning surveyor, and test his ability and knowledge to:
- Measure angles with a transit
- Determine that his transit, compass, tripod, etc. are in good condition
- Be aware of, observe, and correct for "local magnetic attraction".
- Measure distances with a chain.
- Record data in a field book
- Consider and sort through various forms of evidence that might be uncovered.
- Prepare a plat on the basis of recorded data
- Write a description
Craftily done, I think such a school could really help to hone the behavior of the profession. My 2 cents.
[USER=10458]@Jones[/USER] I understand your point. The issue is that even now, having been a registered survey tech, worked alongside other surveyors with between 8 - 30 years experience, and after 18 months of that still needs to be baby handled is just not acceptable to me. I can understand being freshly graduated and not knowing how to exactly use a S6 and Ranger, but not understanding what COGO stands for, what the difference would be between Station setup and Resection, not knowing why longer backsights should be used, me STILL having to explain how levelling works, the inability to comprehend what a prism constant is and how it affects EDM distances.
I've hijacked the thread and gone way off topic, and for that I apologise. Our grads (80%+) have no passion to actually learn or do the work. Yes our curriculum was a bit TOO focused on 1930 procrdures but I can live with that. Understanding that creates a better understanding of how it is done now. But there is no exampling of how we have done beyond 1930. We had exactly 1 day of exposure to modern day surbey software, maybe 2 weeks of CAD and immense amounts of GIS.
If they could use 1930 equipment properly,reduce the info and produce work similar to what we do with moden tech I would be happy. Those would probably adjust easily into newer tech with some learning. But we are getting grads who cant properly use the old stuff,and have no passion to learn the old days and definitely no passion to learn the new stuff.
I do not want to bash any learning of old procedures and I have massive respect for the guys who did our Trig system in our country, the equipment they used and how well the results can be checked against with GNSS etc. and how we can learn from their techniques.
Don't intend to offend anyone but I'm just frustrated with surveyors who have been "surveying" for 3 years after graduating and still act like they are in week 1 of varsity. Not at all sure how it is in the US or elsewhere but thats how it is in south africa. And then you get guys over here that the amount of experience and knowledge is just amazing.
Maybe pdop1.0 can tell me if I'm way out of line
Dirk
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[USER=10950]@RSAsurv[/USER] I took your original post to mean you wanted grads to operate the newest equipment straight out of college. With the various software programs that would be impossible. They should have a great understanding of how all the different technologies work. I graduated in 2012 and the various Cogo techniques, proper field procedures were taught heavily. It sounds like to me it's not a failure of the educational system, but a lack of discipline and work ethic that seems to affect my generation.
Jones, post: 385937, member: 10458 wrote: [USER=10950]@RSAsurv[/USER] It sounds like to me it's not a failure of the educational system, but a lack of discipline and work ethic that seems to affect my generation.
...said every generation ever. And it is still as incorrect as it was ten generations ago. (Seriously not trying to pick on you, you are just the most recent poster - it's a sentiment I see everywhere nowadays.)
I happen to be on the dividing line between Gen X and millennials. I first learned fieldwork from a couple of older Baby Boomers, and since then have worked with a wide range of ages and disciplines. A couple of years ago I decided to go back to school (after ten years in surveying) and earn a 4-year geomatics degree, as I started hitting the experience requirements for licensure right as most states expanded the education requirements. (My second bachelor's - so much for the B.A.) I have worked full-time surveying, and attended school full-time for three years now, and I think I have a pretty good perspective of both worlds.
There is always going to be that 10-20 percent of people who want the status without putting the effort in. That has held true in the workplace, in clubs/organizations, and in school as well. Graduates are no different. Indeed, I have worked with and met many licensed surveyors who were adamant that the young'uns be able to perform sun shots as a prerequisite for licensure, yet these licensed professionals were unable to operate the basic CAD and processing/adjusting software that were necessary for them to exercise their professional responsible charge. Hypocritical and inexcusable. These were the same folks who had little interest in working with younger surveyors like myself regarding practical boundary location, retracement and analysis.
Personally, I would love to see more weeding out of poor students and slackers; practically speaking, the way most schools operate these days, it is not going to happen anytime soon. I am hopeful that this will change. In the meantime, a great deal of the frustration I see in the up-and-coming students is the array of very specific skills that an equally wide range of individuals have decided is the end-all, be-all of surveying. Mixed signals from a mixed crowd, often belittling and judgmental toward a group of people who have made a significant investment of time and money toward a profession that can be quite variable in its return on investment.
There are regional/local standards and practices that will always vary. Instruct your people if they are in need of instruction. Graduates don't come out of school like survey-bots off an assembly line. Never have, never will. There is a great deal of information and courses that the powers-that-be have decided MUST be in our education program, and it is quite difficult to cram it all into a four-year curriculum. And believe it or not, these programs have to keep up with the times, and consequently current technology. Couple that with the tuition (here in AK they just jacked all engineering classes, which include geomatics, by 25% in the past year) and the pay/job uncertainty compared to 4-year engineering grads, and it's no wonder that many are frustrated when their new boss condemns them for not knowing how to run a staff compass.
You want students to be astro observation whizzes and staff compass studs? Go to your local educational institution and lobby the program directors to get it in the program. Better make a good case for it, though, because they are already beholden to some pretty stringent requirements. And most of these students are spending 95% of their time outside of class either studying for class, attending to their family, or working.
Or, instruct them yourself. That helps all of us.
I would say that 90% plus of the students I know are in the program because they are genuinely interested in the profession, love the multifaceted nature of surveying, and enjoy a challenge. Dumping on them with the "my generation > your generation" does them no good, and certainly doesn't get you better employees.
Rover83, post: 385988, member: 11444 wrote: ...said every generation ever. And it is still as incorrect as it was ten generations ago. (Seriously not trying to pick on you, you are just the most recent poster - it's a sentiment I see everywhere nowadays.)
I happen to be on the dividing line between Gen X and millennials. I first learned fieldwork from a couple of older Baby Boomers, and since then have worked with a wide range of ages and disciplines. A couple of years ago I decided to go back to school (after ten years in surveying) and earn a 4-year geomatics degree, as I started hitting the experience requirements for licensure right as most states expanded the education requirements. (My second bachelor's - so much for the B.A.) I have worked full-time surveying, and attended school full-time for three years now, and I think I have a pretty good perspective of both worlds.
There is always going to be that 10-20 percent of people who want the status without putting the effort in. That has held true in the workplace, in clubs/organizations, and in school as well. Graduates are no different. Indeed, I have worked with and met many licensed surveyors who were adamant that the young'uns be able to perform sun shots as a prerequisite for licensure, yet these licensed professionals were unable to operate the basic CAD and processing/adjusting software that were necessary for them to exercise their professional responsible charge. Hypocritical and inexcusable. These were the same folks who had little interest in working with younger surveyors like myself regarding practical boundary location, retracement and analysis.
Personally, I would love to see more weeding out of poor students and slackers; practically speaking, the way most schools operate these days, it is not going to happen anytime soon. I am hopeful that this will change. In the meantime, a great deal of the frustration I see in the up-and-coming students is the array of very specific skills that an equally wide range of individuals have decided is the end-all, be-all of surveying. Mixed signals from a mixed crowd, often belittling and judgmental toward a group of people who have made a significant investment of time and money toward a profession that can be quite variable in its return on investment.
There are regional/local standards and practices that will always vary. Instruct your people if they are in need of instruction. Graduates don't come out of school like survey-bots off an assembly line. Never have, never will. There is a great deal of information and courses that the powers-that-be have decided MUST be in our education program, and it is quite difficult to cram it all into a four-year curriculum. And believe it or not, these programs have to keep up with the times, and consequently current technology. Couple that with the tuition (here in AK they just jacked all engineering classes, which include geomatics, by 25% in the past year) and the pay/job uncertainty compared to 4-year engineering grads, and it's no wonder that many are frustrated when their new boss condemns them for not knowing how to run a staff compass.
You want students to be astro observation whizzes and staff compass studs? Go to your local educational institution and lobby the program directors to get it in the program. Better make a good case for it, though, because they are already beholden to some pretty stringent requirements. And most of these students are spending 95% of their time outside of class either studying for class, attending to their family, or working.
Or, instruct them yourself. That helps all of us.
I would say that 90% plus of the students I know are in the program because they are genuinely interested in the profession, love the multifaceted nature of surveying, and enjoy a challenge. Dumping on them with the "my generation > your generation" does them no good, and certainly doesn't get you better employees.
I don't know if you noticed I said my generation. I am 26, my comment about my generation was not only directed at surveying. RSAsurv explained that he can't not find any help that know the basics of the profession, and DONT have the desire to learn. It's not the fact that they may not know everything that is needed; but they should know the basics; it's the fact they are unwilling to learn. My post was taking up for the education system, or at least my experience at ETSU. I felt the professors did a good job of explaining the basics old and new, as well as weeding out those who have a weak work ethic and desire to learn.
Just curious how many professional surveyors out there still work outside even once a year? Up north it's exceptionally rare unless it's a very small office. How does your state handle continuing education, do your associations have mandatory learning hours?
Greg Rodger, post: 386199, member: 11989 wrote: Just curious how many professional surveyors out there still work outside even once a year? Up north it's exceptionally rare unless it's a very small office. How does your state handle continuing education, do your associations have mandatory learning hours?
I'm outside M-Thurs. Friday I stay in the office. But on field days I'm still in about 50% of the time. I'm usually outside 10-12 and 1:30-4
Out in it on about 95 percent or more of my projects. Rare that I miss one. As a dual licensee I need 40 hours that are deemed acceptable every two-year renewal period. Half in surveying and half in engineering. If I had only one license it would just be 30 hours every two years. The kicker is that there is no pre-approval except for a required two-hour minimum standards session. So, you put down what you have done that you ASSUME will be accepted if audited. I think you get a certain amount of time to make up any shortage due to rejection of some portion of what you have submitted. I pick up nearly all of my CE out-of-state because it is better, closer and less expensive. As I'm also licensed in real estate I get to put in even more CE, however most of that can be done online.
I am somewhat appalled that there are places where the license holders never go to the field. That is most definitely not something I can support as being appropriate for our profession to allow.
Nate The Surveyor, post: 385347, member: 291 wrote: How can they ACCEPT or REJECT with understanding, IF they have NEVER used the equipment?
A few years of retracing old work and proper mentoring... I mean, really should everyone learn to use a misery whip before they fire up a chainsaw? Drive a Model T prior to the used Honda Civic their parents bought for hem at age 16?
I am able to understand the world of 200' steel tapes, reading verniers, and long hand calculating because of my mentors, I have always been so F***ing happy that EDMs came around before I had to be productive in the field. Embrace technology, but understand history; anyone worth their salt knows that you don't have to be experienced turning deflection angles with an old transit to be a good surveyor.
@J.Holt I agree your sentiment.
Our CE requires 20 credits per 5 year cycle with a minimum of 3 credits per year in 2 different categories.
Categories are development activities ( conferences,seminars where 10hours = 1 credit with max 10 credits per year) , work based activities (total max 4 credits) and individual categories (voluntary body membership = 1 credit, other category activities[not sure what it means] = 5 credits with max 5 credits per year from this category).
I dont agree completely with this because it means that a surveyor can be renewed registered with our council (PLATO) if he is a member of our voluntary (SAGI) [gives 1 credit per year from category 3] and then just had to work [4 credits per year from category 2]. So he gets 5 credits a year but there is no way to determine if the CPD (continual professional development) actually gets the guy developing or learning. He can be sitting in the middle of the bush, using a T2 and chain and they would be happy. Not that the method is necessarily inferior but how is that "development".
They assume most guys would in an attempt to be profitable seek productive measures which requires usually keeping up with the tech or other developments but we all know what assumptions do.
We do have many guys who are tack sharp and brilliant st what they do,young and old, but we (our council) creates an environment where development is encouraged but not enforced. We also have very clear regulayions stating who is allowed to do survey work. They dont enforce it. Nearly every construction site I've been to in the past 7 or so years did not have a qualified or PLATO registered surveyor as a dedicated site surveyor. We (regsitered surveyors at smaller firms) are usually sub- contracted or brought in for the "difficult" work.
Extract from our regulations :
A person may not practice in or perform any work, whether for reward or
otherwise, which is reserved for any of the categories or branches referred to in
subsection (1), unless he or she is registered in that category or branch or he or she
performs such work under the supervision of a registered person of the same discipline
and such registered person assumes responsibility for any work so performed.
And then later it is said that :
(1) Any person or body who contravenes the provisions of section 13(2) or (5), 15,
16(3), 18(6) or 23(5)(b) or (c) or (6) is guilty of an offence.
(2) Any person convicted of an offence of contravening the provisions of section
13(2) or (5) or 16(3), is liable to a maximum fine equal to double the remuneration
payable to him or her for work done during the period of such contravention or to a
maximum fine equal to the fine calculated according to the ratio determined for a period of three yearsÛªimprisonment in terms of the Adjustment of Fines Act, 1
Yet I have never seen PLATO enforce these rules on anyone. Our voluntary board SAGI is atleast trying to enforce some rules on,as Kent would say El Cheapo Radipo firms,who provide UAV work for volumes and topo work (i. e work designated to surveyors) but are not surveyors.
Well thats my rant I'll be going now
Hope everyone lesrns something new everyday
Dirk
Monte, post: 385346, member: 11913 wrote: Nate, I have met a small handful of licensed surveyors who came out of school who could not even set up an instrument. I am in agreement with your suggestion. How can they sign off on work, and agree that it was done correctly if they have no idea what it takes to do the work correctly? How can they appreciate the work done by the past generations if they have no concept of how the past generations did their work?
Monte, that's the point.
The things that happened in the woods are important. If we don't understand it, it is hard to retrace it.
Nate
J. Holt, post: 387658, member: 84 wrote: A few years of retracing old work and proper mentoring... I mean, really should everyone learn to use a misery whip before they fire up a chainsaw? Drive a Model T prior to the used Honda Civic their parents bought for hem at age 16?
I am able to understand the world of 200' steel tapes, reading verniers, and long hand calculating because of my mentors, I have always been so F***ing happy that EDMs came around before I had to be productive in the field. Embrace technology, but understand history; anyone worth their salt knows that you don't have to be experienced turning deflection angles with an old transit to be a good surveyor.
I get where you're coming from, but there is a difference in driving or cutting wood. In our case most of our work is retracement of older surveying. I don't think you need to be a master of compass and chain, but you should understand it which might help you have a more complete feel of what kind of precisions and what kind of busts that may have occurred in the older times.
dms330, post: 385568, member: 2118 wrote: Greg, I don't mean to give you a hard time but you don't sound like any surveyor I've ever spoken with.
He does to me. There is one that works in the area A. Harris and I inhabit that got his licenses and had never been off the asphalt of Dallas - Fort Worth. He messes up just about every large retracement in the thickets that he does, he has GPS and recovers 2 or 3 corners on the tract rotates the deed calls in and starts setting pins often missing the original corners by several feet because he does not understand that all of the original Headright Survey lines in this area were run with a compass. A degree of error is equal to 100 feet in a mile, do the math an how large of a circle should be acceptable on a line that is 500 varas long when the best that the compass could be read is 15 minutes.
paden cash, post: 385841, member: 20 wrote: I've met Dennis and listened to him speak several times. He's got a great presentation over several topics with a good sense of humor and talent for speaking. His experience is unique that he has worked both sides of the BLM/private portions of our profession. If you ever get the chance to sit in and listen to him you'd better. Three years ago, after an aggravating bout with knee surgery, he confided he wasn't sure how much longer he'd be "doing the circuit". Glad to hear he's still around.
He gave the best class on section subdivision in Lotted Sections I have ever set in on.
J. Holt, post: 387658, member: 84 wrote: A few years of retracing old work and proper mentoring... I mean, really should everyone learn to use a misery whip before they fire up a chainsaw?
Right. I think a thorough understanding of the theory is essential, and using old equipment is also essential in so far as it demonstrates the theory in a practical and readable sense. It shows you the 'why,' and that's crucial for those occasions where you have to think around a problem. I also get how becoming familiar in the actual use of antiquated equipment would be helpful when reading old surveys performed with that equipment. Enough to devote days/weeks/months to it, though? Maybe in my downtime.
Which, for me, working and schooling full time, with a family, amounts to approximately negative 6hrs a day (yes, I'm breaking the laws of physics to get a start in this career).
Excited for my first actual surveying class in a couple weeks, I'll report back on the state of things!
When you actually USE a compass, that has a little sticky needle, and you tap the glass with your finger, to try to get it to read as accurately as possible, and you actually SEE in the field how a WORN fulcrum compass needle behaves, it tends to "Cool your Jets" when you start working with real monuments in the field, and start REJECTING a 40 yr old monument, that is "Off by 3.5'".
I want the new guys to merely suffer for a SHORT time, with the old gear, before they are too critical. Just to bring the point home, that a Rittenhouse Compass, in a wood frame, on a damp day, can be a bit challenging to perfection out of.
Go slow on rejecting old corners.
Real Slow.
Nate
Here, we are looking about N80W. The GPS is on the remains of a 1930xx BLM Dependant Resurvey monument. The Fence Post, on the right side of the photo, is right beside a 1/2" rebar. Somebody did not hold to the BLM corner.
Here is a better look at the 1930xx BLM corner. Apparently a dozer took the top of it off. The can (Used as a concrete form) is possibly all the metal in that thing. (I have seen them with a 5/8" rebar in them) However, this is all that remains. There is also a witness tree, that is still standing.
After digging it out, and taking pics, well, I think the corner is NOT LOST. The brass disk is probably still attached to the top of the concrete monument, and is probably within 100' of this corner. I did not search for it. But, in retrospect, I MAYBE could have found it, and assembled the monument, and done a better job.
Nobody should pincushion these.
Nate
Nate, He's already jumping fences like a deer and he didn't forget the paint. I can't get that kinda help from most the seasoned field hands that help me.
