Here's my Problem

> I’m just a grumpy old fossil.
The first step to solving a problem is to admit you have one. That done, working from your solid foundation, it shouldn't take you long to get up to speed. Basic principles haven't changed. Get moving.

sounds like bullsh!+ to me, Don.

the tools have changed. the techniques have changed for determining measurements. the deliverables have changed. but the laws that guide property rights haven't. the rules for reconstruction haven't changed. the dignity of calls haven't changed. the need for careful redundancy and research hasn't diminished. that's all what real surveying is.

find a youngster that can measure, or has the aptitude for measuring with the new gizmos. teach him how to survey. and quit whining.

Well then you need to team up with a young whipersnapper who can run all the whiz bang stuff but doesn't know what end of the gammon reel the string comes out of. Then, you both'd be hell on wheels hommie.

There is a time and a place to back up and hit it with the old school. I find it on tedious construction projects the most. You very seldom get bit if you use the tried and true stuff.

My father and I have a similar relationship. He's getting older and it's harder for him to keep up, but he's not irrelevant by ANY means, nor are you. There are absolutely times where I stand up and ask how to do something. He may only give an old way of doing it, but it's at least a procedure to meld with current technology. Then life is grand.

So, How Old Is Too Old To Get An Education?

I was 55 and sitting in survey classes. I never even thought I could ever recoup the cost, but it was something I wanted to do.

If you put a date to the above question you are already too old.

Paul in PA

right on, Kris.

Reminds of the time I was asked to go help an older engineer with a safe routes to school project. He needed the street and adjacent properties topo'd so sidewalks could be added.

I showed up with a robotic total station and he started insisting we set it up every 25' on centerline and then make 90 degree measurements from centerline to get cross sections every 25'. He got kind of pissy when I told him we could set up a control traverse and then shoot the grade breaks and features from that established traverse.

To him that was not acceptable. He felt we had to cut the cross sections in the field so he could understand the data.

What Kris said.

I've learned a hell of a lot from some grumpy old fossils along the way. Glad they took the time to teach me old school ways. Saved my butt more than few times.

You still have a lot to offer and there's some youngster who has a lot to learn from someone like you.

Problems are just opportunities in disguise.

Don,

You ain't THAT much of an old fossil. My CA license is in the low 4900's.

I have very much the same issues as you do. It actually HURTS my head to try to figure out cenverting datums to realizations or whatever, and I am not sure how to spell GPS. I actually thought I knew until some smart kid told me I was actually using GNSS. What??????????????

The REAL difference in my book is that we know what is important, we know how to get it, we know what to do with it, we know what it means, we know when it doesn't "look right", etc, etc.

I think the only way to learn those things is from a good mentor.

I also think that you were just trying to get someone's goat and would like to be acknowledged for what you know, etc. (course I am judging you by looking in the mirror!!!)

Geezer (not OLD Geezer, Just Geezer)

> ..... and I am not sure how to spell GPS. I actually thought I knew until some smart kid told me I was actually using GNSS. What??????????????

:good:

hahaha....:-D

so do any of these guys have a good way to clean coffee off of the computer screen and keyboards?

I'm a really old guy who graduated survey school 50-years ago last month. Those lessons learned the old way, such as how to balance a traverse with both the compass and transit rule with pencil and paper, have proved valuable over the years. I know how to do it the old way so I know what to expect when I click the buttons, which is the new way. I took astronomy classes for fun, but they turned out to be of benefit when GPS came along because I know about orbits. All of our knowledge, no matter how obscure, invariably helps us cope.

Cross Sections

"...he started insisting we set it up every 25' on centerline and then make 90 degree measurements from centerline to get cross sections every 25'. "

lol, CC
I've done a million cross sections that way although I didn't usually turn 90s with the instrument. Just wing dinged it.

Don

Cross Sections

a right-angle-glass makes for a nice compromise. 😉

Here's my Problem...Now the challenge...

Don, from a fellow old phart, also like Bruce, ( Glad to read you are still out and about surveying in Tucson. 'Tis fast approaching a decade since we last dined!) who opted to keep up with technology . There was excellent advice from Shawn and Kris on engaging a young buck. But I hasten to add not too young a buck as there is a possibility that they have not had a good foundation in surveying procedures and error control assessment when gathering or setting out data. You being the computer and modern instrument technology illiterate can easily have the wool pulled over your eyes by a smart arse know all who is just that a button pusher.

I would suggest sussing out a young surveyor the age and pedigree of Shawn , and while I do not personally know Shaun, he has wisely contributed both here and previously on POB for a decade, grown up under his father, so he has surveying in his blood and an education. It could easily become a profitable partnership with a blend of experience, sage advice, your client base, youthful zest and technology and their lack of client base. That way you can both benefit by complimenting each others shortcomings..

Never too late to start...!!!

I hit 68 last year and still love my surveying. Albeit I actually had a 3 week break over Christmas this year LOL!

RADU

"I’m just a grumpy old fossil."

Chill out dude B-)

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Here's my Problem...Now the challenge...

Thank you for the kind words RADU. Like Kris, I owe everything to my mentor. Kris and I have both self-taught and been educated elsewhere, but it all has been built on the knowledge passed down from our dads. It's also why I struggle to dismiss apprenticeship. I know that everyone's experience is not like ours.

I may have been harsh to you Don but understand we value the experience of our older surveyors. They keep the real significance of surveying alive and it isn't gps or data collectors. So when I hear someone denigrate them, it gets me riled up, even if it's one of them.

There's no problem with that, Don. I (field crew) would be proud to work for a registered who can perform in the field, regardless of which file type you generate.
Wasn't it Paul Volker who mentioned the only instance of financial innovation in the last twenty years was the ATM machine?

There's everything that gets said, and what actually gets done, for me. Somehow I don't believe you're prone to BSing.

Which reads somewhat disconnected. What i mean by all that, if you'll give me a minute, is that knowledge is invaluable. It comes from years of field experience you can find some of in books but, put into practice is the actual learning.
Those baseline surveys, even clapping a ninety, are wholly efficacious in the right circumstances, the distinction is knowing when to employ certain methods, the limits of the methods you're using, common and possible sources of error, recognizing distinctive features and the refinement needed to define them. All second nature given the requisite field experience.

Aside from the advent of the EDMI and GPS, from my viewpoint, there doesn't seem to be anything new under the sun. It seems like the current focus is on proprietary devices and software, and the fits and starts that come along with this.
You can count on every day someone posting they've just installed ver.8.6.2 of something and nothing is communicating with anything else but, they're getting Showtime and HBO on their toaster oven now. Spent a day and a half with tech support when an instrument and field book in four hours would have gotten the data needed.

The idea that "You can only learn so much in the field" just blows my mind.
If there's something wrong in the profession of land surveying i would have to point at this being that fait accompli. The whole concept of land surveying is actually surveying the land for the contracted services.."I hereby testify that this survey was conducted on the ground, on this date, under my direct supervision.."
If you don't have the practical field experience, and you hire crews less experienced and educated than yourself, what are you setting yourself up for?
Sometimes it's one or two bits of evidence an experienced eye will see that make the difference. That experience comes one sobering day at a time, and oh how you learn.

The field crew.

I understood what you were saying the first time, R. J., but your further comments added a lot. There's nothing wrong with commentary, right?
Commentary is most of scripture after all.

Thank you,

Don

Here's my Problem...Now the challenge...

Shawn, count me as one of the group of surveyors that learned from our Dads and other older surveyors. My Dad was "old school". I had to learn to do inverses and intersections by hand before he bought an HP 41 to use. I bought my own computer and through a lot of talking, convinced Dad to pay half for some software that I taught myself to use. I wish he was alive to see the advances in technology we have. I took the ICS surveying courses and probably spent more time learning the material inside and out than many college students. That was on top of working 40 a week. I don't have a problem with those getting a degree. There has to be a balance of experience and education. Four years in college with very little actual survey specific couses and one year experience to sit for the test? A disaster in the works. Just my 0.02 worth.