I ask because I do not know. I've only used the free version.
Gmap4 and PropertyLineMaps.com
> [sarcasm]I think you could have done better on your job in Los Angeles.
> You have the lots lines going through the houses!!!![/sarcasm]
Thanks for catching that Joe.
No, the client did not call because the Gmap4 link I sent her included the parameter "tilt=off" and so the aerial she saw did not have the tilted view. I simply neglected to include that additional URL parameter in the link on my examples page. That page is now fixed.
Here is the fixed link:
http://www.mappingsupport.com/p/gmap4.php?tilt=off&t=h&label=off&q=https://sites.google.com/site/propertylinemaps/keep/008_ca.txt
This is google earth pro with "property" lines turned on - White lines
> I'm no lawyer 😉 but I believe the courts have historically differentiated between commercial speech and professional speech.
@James
You raise a good point about professional speech. Let’s examine that.
Sally is going to try selling her property herself on Craig’s list. She has seen real estate websites that include a Google map showing a line around the property that is for sale. Sally wants to include such a map of her property along with the other info she posts on Craig’s list but she has no idea how to go about preparing such a Google map.
Sally calls up the local surveyor and asks if they can provide that kind of Google map. She explains that as long as the lines on the map show approximately where her property is, that is good enough. She says her budget for this map is $50 max and asks if the surveyor can help her.
Naturally the surveyor says “No. That is not what I do.” The profession of surveying deals with “exact” and simply cannot meet Sally’s needs. Since the survey profession cannot meet Sally’s needs it should be no surprise that another profession is springing up, based on advances in technology, that can meet the needs of people like Sally. Instead of the notion of “exact”, this new profession is based on the concept of “approximate”. I have invented software that I believe to be first-of-its-kind that helps to make this new profession possible. As a pioneer in this new profession, I would like nothing better than to grow this business and be able to provide some of the made-in-America technology-based jobs that every community wants.
Now if there comes a time when government sees a compelling need to regulate the speech in this new profession, well that’s what government does. Regulations can be proposed and public hearings can be scheduled.
Finally, let’s go back to those real estate maps I mentioned. You know the ones I mean. The google maps (or Bing or Yahoo or MapQuest) with approximate property lines that you see on many real estate websites. Are any of you suggesting that all of those maps are examples of “surveys” and that the people that produced those maps are subject to penalties according to the regulations that define “surveys” in your jurisdiction?
Joseph Elfelt
And the following link displays the same "property" lines for the same location with the free google maps. Technology marches on.
Joseph Elfelt
its a really well thought out argument you make Joe, but it based on false pretense and it can cause damage to the public who rely upon your pseudo coordinates. Its funny how you equate what you do to a profession. While it is interesting, it isn't professional and your insisting that you are doing nothing wrong (based only on your own misconceived notions)when several licensed professionals tell you that you are is foolish. I am sure that the Washington State Board will look at this matter soon and when they decide then you can tell us what they said. They are the authority in your state, not us here.
There are distinct differences between a Gmap property map and Google/Bing parcel lines. Google maps show parcel maps over a broad area, for EVERYONE. This Gmap site produces coordinates for a SPECIFIC piece of property. Therein lies the difference.
For example, let's say I have chest discomfort. I can go to medical websites and find that this discomfort MAY be caused by a heart attack or it may be just heartburn. I STILL need an expert opinion as to what is causing MY chest discomfort. I cannot RELY on the general medical websites to diagnose my specific problem.
This site is purporting to give advice on property lines for a SPECIFIC piece of property for a fee. It would be no different than setting up a website where people can pay $40 to diagnose whether you're having a heart attack or heartburn, regardless of the reported accuracy of that diagnosis.
> I am sure that the Washington State Board will look at this matter soon and when they decide then you can tell us what they said. They are the authority in your state, not us here.
I have reviewed the relevant Washington State statutes. Chapter 18.43 provides in part:
“‘Practice of land surveying’ means assuming responsible charge of the surveying of land for the establishment of corners, lines, boundaries, and monuments, the laying out and subdivision of land, the defining and locating of corners, lines, boundaries, and monuments of land after they have been established, the survey of land areas for the purpose of determining the topography thereof, the making of topographical delineations and the preparing of maps and accurate records thereof, when the proper performance of such services requires technical knowledge and skill.”
Washington State RCW 18.43.020(9)
I am not ‘establishing’ corners. Furthermore, if you boil the above language way down then it states that the “‘
ractice of land surveying’ means ... surveying ....” Chapter 18.43 does not provide a definition of “surveying”.
Chapter 58.09 of the Washington State statutes deals with recording surveys. This chapter provides the following definition of “survey”.
“‘Survey’ shall mean the locating and monumenting in accordance with sound principles of land surveying by or under the supervision of a licensed land surveyor, of points or lines which define the exterior boundary or boundaries common to two or more ownerships or which reestablish or restore general land office corners.”
RCW 58.09.020(3).
I am not doing any “monumenting”.
Joseph Elfelt
I'm not sure about Washington, but here in MA, defining a property corner by coordinate is equivalent to a monument, albeit the lowest of monuments.
it all boils down to this, your opinion does not matter. only the board's does. If you don't want to get out front of this and head off any possible legal action, thats your business, but I can guarantee you that more than one surveyor has reported this to the board, Surveyors are very territorial when they see what they believe amounts to unlicensed practice. eventually we will see what the board has to say.
Gmap4>You've got to be kidding me
Property Line Maps
Find property lines and find property cornersIs the page headline, and you're not establishing corners?
What does "Property Line Map" mean?? This kind of quackery is ridiculous and an attempt to defraud individuals.
No wonder each state board is charged with protecting the health and welfare of the citizens; that's to prevent stuff JUST LIKE THIS sort of malpractice.
I'd like to see this attempted in MA.. Are you ready to defend this practice in all 50 states? I hope your travel and attorney's budget fees are up to it!
> Sally is going to try selling her property herself on Craig’s list. She has seen real estate websites that include a Google map showing a line around the property that is for sale. Sally wants to include such a map of her property along with the other info she posts on Craig’s list but she has no idea how to go about preparing such a Google map.
>
> Sally calls up the local surveyor and asks if they can provide that kind of Google map. She explains that as long as the lines on the map show approximately where her property is, that is good enough. She says her budget for this map is $50 max and asks if the surveyor can help her.
>
> Naturally the surveyor says “No. That is not what I do.” The profession of surveying deals with “exact” and simply cannot meet Sally’s needs. Since the survey profession cannot meet Sally’s needs it should be no surprise that another profession is springing up, based on advances in technology, that can meet the needs of people like Sally.....
The surveyor CAN meet Sally's needs, she just doesn't want to spend more than 50 bucks.
It's been my experience; when someone like Sally sells her property, she hands the buyer YOUR information and tells them, "Here is the SURVEY information I had done". I could go on and on about the different scenarios that will evolve from this, but I think we've all heard the horror stories, if not seen them happen, first hand.
I don't know how many times I'm told that they have a copy of the plat, and when they give it to me, it's the copy of the assessor's map that came with the title policy they got when they bought the property. They look right past the disclaimer and believe wht they are looking at is gospel, it isn't.
The general public is clueless as to how a boundary line is established, it appears you are too. You can't just pick a coordinate off a map and tell someone "here is the approximate corner of your property." I could point to any place on the planet and tell anyone "here is the approximate corner of your property" and would be just as right.
Boundaries are established by points on the ground; always have, and always will be (The good Lord willing). But not until the General Public is educated to that fact, will we have a sensible order of Land Title.
Real Estate is the biggest, most important purchase, most of us make; why do some people think that it should only cost 50 bucks to figure out where it is?
Douglas Casement, PLS Puyallup WA
:good:
> Real Estate is the biggest, most important purchase, most of us make; why do some people think that it should only cost 50 bucks to figure out where it is?
:good:
Contact Info?
Does anyone have contact information ... address, phone number, etc? It would be helpful in filing a complaint.
I did find this:
> > I am sure that the Washington State Board will look at this matter soon and when they decide then you can tell us what they said. They are the authority in your state, not us here.
>
> I have reviewed the relevant Washington State statutes. Chapter 18.43 provides in part:
>
> “‘Practice of land surveying’ means assuming responsible charge of the surveying of land for the establishment of corners, lines, boundaries, and monuments, the laying out and subdivision of land, the defining and locating of corners, lines, boundaries, and monuments of land after they have been established, the survey of land areas for the purpose of determining the topography thereof, the making of topographical delineations and the preparing of maps and accurate records thereof, when the proper performance of such services requires technical knowledge and skill.”
> Washington State RCW 18.43.020(9)
I do believe that your website infers that you are doing the accurate preparing of maps that shows the definition of ones property lines. Maybe it is splitting hairs, but the state boards tend to be overly cautious. It may behoove you to get their opinion as to proper language that still allow you to provide a service and wouldn't be contrary to their definitions and or interpretations.
> I am not ‘establishing’ corners. Furthermore, if you boil the above language way down then it states that the “‘
ractice of land surveying’ means ... surveying ....” Chapter 18.43 does not provide a definition of “surveying”.
>
> Chapter 58.09 of the Washington State statutes deals with recording surveys. This chapter provides the following definition of “survey”.
>
> “‘Survey’ shall mean the locating and monumenting in accordance with sound principles of land surveying by or under the supervision of a licensed land surveyor, of points or lines which define the exterior boundary or boundaries common to two or more ownerships or which reestablish or restore general land office corners.”
> RCW 58.09.020(3).
>
> I am not doing any “monumenting”.
>
> Joseph Elfelt
I also interpret the Oregon Statues, that establishing property lines on a map as a commercial product would fall under their definition of Land surveying.
http://landru.leg.state.or.us/ors/672.html
Again I would say be preemptive in checking with them about your language, product and service so you can continue with their legal blessing.
Gmap4 and PropertyLineMaps.com
May want to look at Wisconsin law:
A-E 7.02? Property survey, definition. In this chapter, "property survey" means any land surveying which includes as one of its principal purposes describing, monumenting, locating the boundary lines of or mapping one or more parcels of land. The term includes the restoration, perpetuation or reestablishment of a U.S. public survey corner.
443.01(4) “Land surveying” means any service comprising the
determination of the location of land boundaries and land boundary
corners; the preparation of maps showing the shape and area
of tracts of land and their subdivisions into smaller tracts; the preparation
of maps showing the layout of roads, streets and rights?of?
way of same to give access to smaller tracts; and the preparation
of official plats, or maps, of land in this state.
> I'm not sure about Washington, but here in MA, defining a property corner by coordinate is equivalent to a monument, albeit the lowest of monuments.
Let’s think some more about this point regarding coordinates.
Sally owns 80 acres and is going to try to sell it herself on Craig’s list. To help promote her property Sally decides to make her own map. First she figures out how to get coordinates from the online county GIS . Then she reads some ‘help’ information posted by Google and learns how to make her own KML file that contains the coordinates she got from the county GIS.
KML info: https://developers.google.com/kml/documentation/
Sally ‘imports’ her KML file into plain old Google maps and then clicks the button that gives her a link that she can include with the other information about her land that she posts on Craig’s list. Below is an example of the kind of link Sally would get after doing this work. This map displays a red line that connects the coordinates Sally got from the county GIS.
https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=214946031363607964220.0004d61da678460d04391&msa=0&ll=44.56508,-85.136275&spn=0.011557,0.018475
The info that Sally includes in her online ad plainly states that (1) she does not have a survey for the property and (2) that the property lines on the map are only approximate.
Are the various survey boards supposed to beat up on Sally simply because she had enough gumption and savvy to figure out how to make her own map? And if not, then is there any language in the relevant statutes that direct the survey boards to beat up on a third party (me!) who does the same work at Sally’s request?
Now rewind. Sally is a highly experienced off-trail backcountry hiker and owns a top-of-the-line Garmin GPS. She uses her GPS to collect her own approximate corner coordinates instead of messing with the county GIS system. After all, three of her corners are on roads. How hard could it be for Sally to stand there and collect coordinates? Then she continues as before by using those coordinates to build a KML file, imports that KML file into Google maps and obtains her map link. Should Sally really be fined by the boards for no reason other than the fact that she is smart enough to know how to do this?
Joseph Elfelt
Well, the obvious difference here is that "sally" is not selling her services to the public claiming to be an expert in computing property corner locations or mapping "property line maps", and advising people on where their legal property boundaries are located ... a line of work that is reserved by state laws to be the domain of licensed surveyors.
Here's another hypothetical:
Sally has headache, sally determines she needs aspirin, and goes and buys aspirin.
vs.
Sally opens a clinic to diagnosis other people's headaches and prescribe medication.
I'm sure in your opinion, sally is just selling her opinion under her freedom of speech rights?
> Well, the obvious difference here is that "sally" is not selling her services to the public claiming to be an expert in computing property corner locations or mapping "property line maps", and advising people on where their legal property boundaries are located ... a line of work that is reserved by state laws to be the domain of licensed surveyors
Just so there is no confusion, I will restate the nature of my business.
I produce approximate corner coordinates according to a goal plainly stated on my website. That *goal* is to produce coordinates that, on average, are within 30 feet of accurate. My website also plainly states (see the FAQ) that sometimes the coordinates I produce will not meet that goal. When these coordinates are connected with lines on a map then I have always taken care to represent those maps as showing approximate property lines and I have never represented those maps as showing “legal property boundaries” as asserted in your post.
I am happy to participate in the discussion here and I thank everyone for taking the time to share their viewpoint. However, this discussion only has value if the facts remain accurate.
An argument has also been made that the survey boards should come after me for the reason that I am charging money for my service. The problem with that argument is that none of the survey statutes I have read say anything at all about money changing hands.
Instead, the survey statutes in the various states bar Sally, however smart she may be, from setting her own corner monuments for the reason that she is not a licensed surveyor. Likewise, the statutes also bar me for the same reason from setting monuments at Sally’s corners even if I offer to do it for free.
In short, the fact that I charge money for producing approximate corner coordinates has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not my service is barred by any statute.
Joseph Elfelt
