Given that boards of registration typically fall under departments of government with names like "Division of Consumer Services" and "Department of Professional Regulations", etc., it seems pretty clear what they are about. But I'll paraphrase general purpose of registration boards ... It's to protect the public from the incompetent practice of professions that have been deemed to cause harm to the public when errors are made. Land surveying is one of those, because when an unqualified person holds themselves out to be an expert in determing property boundaries, and the public relies on their information, and errors are made, it's typically very expensive ($20,000+) to litigate a boundary dispute, and if its found that a surveyor's incompetence is at fault, he is not only liable to his clients, and possibly their neighbors, but also may be stripped of his license and ordered to pay fines ... Hence, these boards tend to take their regulations seriously.
Anyway, if an unlicensed person were to offer their amateur services for free, the Department of Professional Regulation might not feel that anyone was being scammed or defrauded ... and therefore might not feel they have a case worth persuing. Whatever damages that person causes could be settled in civil court. But if a person is breaking the law and charging for a service that they are not licensed or qualified to provide, a regulator might view that as fraud.
And finally, a person can't really get around the licensing laws by disclaiming his accuracy to be below the state standards. In fact, not being able to meet state standards for boundary determinations would probably just be viewed as further evidence that a person is not qualified to offer a regulated service to the public.
Joseph, how do you arive at the "30 feet of accurate" claim?
Here's a hypothetical that you may not have run into yet but will very likely run into in the future.
Jim hires you to produce a map for the sale of his property. You produce a map for a fee for Jim and there is a structure within 40 feet of the "property line". Buyer assumes this is okay, at worst it's 10 feet off the property line, right?
Sale goes through and the new owner's neighbor has a real property survey complete. Structure is discovered to be over the property line by 20 feet. How can this be? Buyer is sued, buyer sues Jim for misrepresentation, Jim comes after you for your map. After all, it's within "30 feet of accurate".
Have you discussed this hypothetical with your errors and ommissions carrier yet?
>
> Have you discussed this hypothetical with your errors and ommissions carrier yet?
I know the answer to that question. No, he has not had any such discussion because he is not eligible to get any such policy that covers Professional Land Surveyors.
Your CPA can't get Land Surveyors Professional Liability Insurance and I can't get Medical Malpractice Insurance. You must be a licensed member of a profession before you can get insurance that covers that profession.
Larry P
Exactly, Larry. (I forgot to use the sarcasm button)
actually Joseph, Sally is free to set her own corners in most states. You see, you don't know the law and not knowing the law you are picking apart the statutes word by word to make up an argument that your service is legal, despite the many experts on here telling you that it is likely not. You can't claim any accuracy at all because you do not have the expertise to calculate your accuracy, you cant say your line is "about here" because you dont have the surveying knowledge to determine that. No matter what your definitions are or how you word it, providing coordinates to the public and representing them as approximate corner locations is illegal in NC without a license. ( NC places a higher value on coordinates than most other states)You didn't know that though, because you aren't licensed here. and it doesnt matter if you operate out of state, NC can and has shut down many businesses operating illegally. I understand that the Washington board will be reviewing your situation at their next meeting. I am interested in their interpretation but other than that, I wont comment further and I wish you well.
> And the following link displays the same "property" lines for the same location with the free google maps. Technology marches on.
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> Joseph Elfelt
Yes, and that is a reason why the public deserves protection from business enterprises that use GPS cell phone technology and google maps to deliniate property boundaries.
You don't realize it but you have made the case for the public not to use your site.
Here are some thoughts on the argument that the survey boards should shut down my service in order to protect the public.
Example #1.
Below is a link for property near Olympia, Washington that is listed for sale by the Windermere real estate firm. The listing info includes an aerial map with approximate property lines.
http://www.windermereolympia.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=detail&startrow=2&cfid=25814339&cftoken=25428983
Is the public harmed because the Windermere listing includes a map showing approximate property lines?
Sally owns property near Olympia, Washington and wants to sell it. Instead of listing her property with Windermere she is going to advertise it on Craig’s list. Sally wants the information she places online to include a map link that people can click to see an aerial map that shows her approximate property lines.
Is the public harmed if Sally includes such a map link with her posting on Craig’s list?
Is the public harmed if Sally asks me to prepare that map link for her?
Example #2.
Johnny buys 40 acres in northern Wisconsin that has not been surveyed. He wants to be able to email family and friends a link that they can click that shows his approximate property lines on a topographic map. Here is Johnny’s map:
http://www.mappingsupport.com/p/gmap4.php?q=https://sites.google.com/site/propertylinemaps/keep/wisc_demo_40_ac.txt&ll=46.415908,-90.364246&t=t4&z=16
Is the public harmed because I provide a map link to Johnny so he can brag about the property he just bought and do so by way of a nice online topo map that shows approximately where his boundaries are located?
Example #3.
Betty owns property in North Carolina that was surveyed some years ago. The surveyor marked the corners with capped rebar. Over the years, the top of the rebar has become covered with down branches, brush, grass, leaves, dirt from mole hills, etc. Betty has a copy of the survey and a friend who owns a GPS.
Is the public harmed because I provide Betty with approximate corner coordinates so Betty and her GPS-equipped friend, along with their kids and maybe a metal detector, can go on a ‘treasure hunt’ and look for the ‘lost’ capped rebar?
Let’s bubble up.
I don’t think that anyone here has argued that the survey boards should ban my service if it is used for the purpose I intend. Instead, the only argument that has been made is that it is possible for people to abuse my service and for that reason alone the boards should prohibit me from providing the service. That argument is exactly the same as saying that it should be illegal for anyone to sell over-the-counter sleeping pills since it is possible to abuse that product by taking too many.
Also, to help address some of the points that have been raised I added the following to my FAQ:
Q: My property has never been surveyed. Can I use the coordinates you provide to mark my property corners on the ground?
A: No. There are two reasons for this. First, the coordinates we provide are only approximate. Second, it is a violation of state law for anyone, even the property owner, to mark their property corners on the ground unless they are a licensed surveyor. If your goal is to get your property corners marked on the ground then you must hire a surveyor.
Q: Can I use your coordinates to determine if my neighbor’s building or my neighbor’s road is on my land?
A: No. The only way to know for certain whether anything like a building or road is on the wrong side of the property line is to know the exact location of the property line. The only way to know that exact location is to hire a licensed surveyor.
Joseph Elfelt
Put your money where your map is
Why not send in a note to the Board of Registration verifying that your efforts have not been in vain? Ask them to make the determination, then see how it goes. If you believe you are in the right, you should have no issue verifying this.
I would be most interested to see how this works in different states. Will they all say no or will one accept your argument? Perhaps you will have the best luck in Rhode Island.
You have a deep misunderstanding of Land Surveyors, what we do and how we do it. Perhaps, if you read the many posts here, you would realize that none of us view you as competition. We view you as ignorant, and have been generous with our expert advice.
Your defensive posture has not allowed you to process the information provided to you.
For example; Surveyors do not do exact, we have an error budget just like you. But you don't get it no matter how many people say it.
Another example: Most of the guys here manage the business, or own it. They identify with starting a business. They are sharing with you how to avoid problems by contacting the boards of the various states. Instead of listening, you argue.
Truth is, if you had letters that ok'ed your work, most people here wouldn't care about your site.