Gmap4

Gmap4 and [REDACTED]

Hello Everyone,

I have wondered when someone would raise this topic here. My name is Joseph Elfelt and I am the owner and software developer behind both Gmap4 and a new service that offers to provide approximate coordinates for property corners. I agree with Richard (and the rest of you) 100% that “coordinates don't make a boundary”. I also agree with his point that it is not hard to find examples online that show property boundaries that are “not where they should be”.

You can find a quick summary describing what I am doing at http://www.mappingsupport.com/ along with links for more information.

In launching this new service to produce approximate coordinates for property corners, it has been important to me to (1) not misrepresent my product and (2) remain on good terms with the community of registered surveyors. Regarding this first point, here are some quotes from my website:

“Although the coordinates and property lines we produce are approximate, they are still the most accurate coordinates you can get without hiring a surveyor.”

“Our goal is to produce coordinates that are within 30 feet of accurate on average.”

“[T]he data we produce is not survey-grade, however for many purposes it is close enough. But if you need to know exactly where your property corners and lines are, then you need to contact a surveyor. The online map links we produce are not surveys.”

Get the drift?

If you would like to know more, please take a moment and read about me ( http://www.propertylinemaps.com/p/plm_about.html ) and how it works ( http://www.propertylinemaps.com/p/plm_how_it_works.html ).

The reality is that for some purposes perfection is the enemy of good enough and within 30 feet of accurate on average is ‘good enough’.

Further improvements to the service I am offering are in the works. The next big improvement is currently in beta testing. When this upgrade to the Gmap4 production code goes ‘live’ then I will be able to provide my clients with a link that will include all of their coordinate data right in the link itself. In other words, it will no longer be necessary for there to be a separate data file to hold the coordinate data.

Finally, when I personally need property corners to be accurately set, I hire a surveyor. One of my brothers and I own a good chunk of vacant acreage in northern Michigan. Last year we split one large parcel and sold 80 acres. We hired Three D Surveying of Lake City Michigan to set those corners.

The world is a big place and there is room for many different kinds of solutions. I hope we can all get along. And who knows - perhaps some of you might have a use for my service.

Almost forgot one thing. While Gmap4 is free for non-commercial use, there is a $50 annual license fee for commercial use and any commercial use must comply with Google's terms of service.

Joseph Elfelt
Redmond, WA, USA

Gmap4 and [REDACTED]

My take is you can put all the disclaimers you want, someone will misuse the information. It is quite common for surveyors to get a call with misinformation from a GIS, such as "I have my coordinates from the GIS and I want you to stake it on the ground." In fact I am sure that some might use your tool to set their own corners. Selling information that purports to be boundary coordinates or even approximate corners might get you in hot water with boards of various states. What I would do is write a letter to each board and ask if the way you are offering services is legal for you to provide in that state. This way you will not face charges or harassment from states attorney generals or survey boards. They are the authorities and while I would expect most will be fine with your work, some might consider this surveying and require licensure.

It's a big problem. I've been dealing with it for years. Frankly, much of the GIS data is C%$p.

I see property/sectional lines "out" by hundreds and even more than a thousand feet in some areas. Other information is plotted so far off that there are areas where historical flood maps are so poorly inserted into a GIS system that you can build in the water but not behind a flood control dike. The old paper maps without "coordinates" were just fine and caused little issues. But this new garbage is causing real people real money and heartache. It's like they are put together by a kindergarten class, there is little professionalism involved.

The idea that the property corners are within thirty feet is a joke in many areas. The idea that you are getting coordinates on a property corner is also a joke; you aren't getting them any more than you did with scaling some off a tax map plotted onto a quad sheet from 50 years ago. If people want to use these stylized "pictures" for preliminary planning fine. That's what they're for, but beyond that it's a problem.

Gmap4 and [REDACTED]

Our goal is to help you find property lines and find property corners by producing the most accurate GPS coordinates possible without hiring a surveyor. We do this by taking the information you supply and combining it with any online research we might do. That data is then processed by our own unique first-of-its-kind proprietary software.

There is a reason surveyors exist. Not every monument is a property corner, a prime example is when you find a road bound ten feet from a property corner. Not all of those have a nice brass seal in the top.

Of course, this site will cause an incredible amount of confusion and chaos which will ultimately trickle down to court cases and incredible fees for the professional expert witnesses.

Once again, the GIS industry is pushing into a place where they do not belong.

Q: Can you provide an online map link for property boundary that has not been surveyed?
A: Yes. We do this based on the property legal description.

You want irony? While I waited for the reply to load, I watched the ad for Identity Theft scroll across the bottom of the screen.

> You want irony? While I waited for the reply to load, I watched the ad for Identity Theft scroll across the bottom of the screen.

@spledeus
Whatever you saw it did not come from me or from my website.

I coded by hand all the webpages you see on my Gmap4 and PropertyLineMapping websites. Anyone can easily see that my sites are 100% clean by using Firefox and clicking Tools ==> Web developer ==> View source.

Those webpages are very simple and you can easily see 100% of the source code.

It was an ad from this website.

While you have disclaimers that your work is not based on a legitimate survey or equivalent to a legitimate survey, your site does propose that it can help with tasks typically reserved for a professional surveyor.

Gmap4 and [REDACTED]

Rambleon has it right.

What you offer is not allowed in North Carolina unless you have a NC license. As soon as they find out, expect a cease and desist letter.

I can tell you our board takes its obligation to protect the public very seriously. What you are doing does not protect the public.

Larry P

Been AWOL, and reading here are the very same issues we face, except we don't seem to have a prohibition on publication of cadastral boundaries in this format.

I posted after a friend rang to say he was replacing his fence and was a bit concerned as the step in the boundary didn't match what was on the ground when compared with our own government Web site that details all manner of earthly things.
It's common knowledge here that boundaries differ by up to and even more than 20 metres on that sight.
Yes there is a disclaimer BUT!
I had the survey information and the last survey showed the fence then was offset from the boundary by 0.9 metres. He had found about 3 metres different according to the Web.

To me, it's not about surveyors getting a foot in the door for more work but protecting the public from doing something regrettably stupid and find they have unnecessary costs later when such could have been avoided.

Joseph I didn't post here to give you the stick and I do enjoy your site and the way you have set it up.
I'm not sure what the answer is but I imagine if you pull the pin on your work someone else will pick up and head off into the unknown.
People these days seem so gullible when it comes to information on the Web and there being no end of "informed people" out there it leaves things open for all manner of so called experts leading others down wrong paths.

> Joseph I didn't post here to give you the stick and I do enjoy your site and the way you have set it up.

Richard, I'm glad you are enjoying Gmap4. Below is a link that starts the latest beta version and displays the ESRI world topo map centered on Hobart, Tasmania. You can also view the world topo map known as OSM Cycle which is a spin-off from the open source Open Street Mapping project and includes user-sourced trails.

http://www.mappingsupport.com/p/beta/gmap4_beta_815.php?ll=-42.878311,147.305695&t=t7&z=13

My thanks to all who commented on my new service producing approximate corner coordinates. I reviewed the content of my website and added language to the 'About' page stating that I am not a surveyor and if people need a survey then I cannot help them. I also modified my software so when you are looking at an online map that shows the approximate property lines and you click right above a corner then the popup that displays the coordinates now includes the word "Approximate" in bold type.

I made these changes to further lessen the likelihood that anyone will misunderstand or intentionally misrepresent the service I am providing.

I think that the bottom line is this. It is possible to educate people that are ignorant but none of us can cure stupidity. A corollary to this rule is that it is always possible to abuse anything, including a an actual survey. For example, someone who purchases a survey could move the pins and then misrepresent the new locations.

Some comments in this thread pertain to the various boards and agencies that regulate surveying. I note that every regulatory definition I have seen of “survey” is written so broadly as to allow the full regulatory wrath to fall upon any 6th grader who dared to make a crude map showing where they lived. In any event, as long as I do not locate corners in the field or represent that I am a surveyor, it strikes me that I have a right protected by the ‘free speech” clause of the First Amendment to express my opinion regarding the approximate corner coordinates for a piece of property. If someone believes my opinion on that point has value and is willing to pay me to hear that opinion, then none of the survey regulations can bar that from happening. For further information on this point please see this recent and informative article summarizing a U.S. Supreme Court case striking down limitations on commercial free speech:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamthierer/2011/06/26/victory-for-commercial-free-speech-at-the-supreme-court/

Finally I want to tell everyone the story behind the first demo map on my homepage. A guy named Nick called me and explained that he was trying to learn more about a land locked 40 acre parcel in Mississippi. He was considering buying the property at a fire sale price and then buying an easement and reselling. Nick went to the county courthouse but all he could get there were poor quality copies of old black and white USDA aerials that were next to useless. He inquired whether my service could show him the approximate property lines on a topographic map and aerial. That was all he needed in order to decide whether or not to go forward with the purchase. I told him he came to the right place, Nick placed his order and I produced a data file that contained the approximate corner coordinates. I sent Nick a Gmap4 link that displays that data file and he was thrilled. It was exactly the kind of information he was looking for and at an extremely affordable price. This guy did not want or need “exact”. What he wanted was “approximate” and that is the business I am in.

Joseph Elfelt
Redmond, WA

[sarcasm]Good luck with that defense on the stand.[/sarcasm]

Claiming to know where the property lines are, and telling a client where they are on the ground sounds like surveying.

That is what is happening here.

Claiming +/- 30' doesn't change anything. Thinking it does demonstrates ignorance of the issues.

I believe this website's product constitutes an offer for surveying services.

And, in this case, the coordinates do claim to make the boundary. That is the claim of the service, and it will be the expectation of the client.

That being said, this service could be useful for a lot of people, and while dangerous to the public, it is more likely to create difficult, expensive surveys for the surveyor. This might be good for someone's pocketbook, but not the public.

I think people do this now with their county GIS. Adding in consumer GPS errors and datum issues, probably won't take any money out of a PLS's pocket.

That isn't the problem...

>I have a right protected by the ‘free speech” clause of the First Amendment to express my opinion regarding the approximate corner coordinates for a piece of property. If someone believes my opinion on that point has value and is willing to pay me to hear that opinion

Try that "reasoning" with a the law, and see what a lawyer says. In fact, you can have an opinion on anything you want. Getting paid for it takes a licence, whether it is medical, law, boundary location, or being a real estate broker.

Kind of sucks, doesn't seem fair...

It matters not what you think of the surveying laws or your interpretation of the law is. What you need to do is call the board in your state and show them your service and ask if it violates the law. If you do not, then someone has probably already forwarded your link to the board anyways and you will likely recieve a "cease and desist" letter followed by action from your attorney general. If you are interested in your business succeeding, then I would get out in front of this issue. Modifying your service to comply with existing laws is way less expensive than fighting legal action in court. The board may even say you are not practicing surveying, but I would be very interested in finding out, if I owned the business.

I'm no lawyer 😉 but I believe the courts have historically differentiated between commercial speech and professional speech.

Is'nt this the same stuff Google earth pro provides?

How does google handle it ?

Gmap4 and [REDACTED]

[sarcasm]I think you could have done better on your job in Los Angeles.
You have the lots lines going through the houses!!!![/sarcasm]

Did you get a call from the client on this one?

I get calls all the time about this issue, everyone seems to think that the aerial photo is taken directly over THEIR house.

I believe that the cat is out of the bag. The GIS mapping available to the general public is just going to increase and the general public will believe their eyes no matter what they read.

They don't claim to tell you where your boundary lines/corners are do they?