Scheesh.
SWMBO usually handles the day to day office stuff, sending proposals (after I describe scope and fee) and routine client discussion.
Well this one woman (down Chatham way, in spledeus land) wanted her property lines staked and corners set. We sent out our standard proposal, including options such as a plot plan with the house and other buildings, and pipes, pins or concrete bounds to set.
That wasn't right, so we sent another proposal with a slightly revised description as to what lines she wanted staked and excluding any options such as a CPP.
Nope, wrong again. Sent a third proposal (note: this is worth about $520 to me. Well known subdivision that I have worked in frequently.)
This time we have it right, she returns a deposit, but neglects to return a signed contract. After several phone calls we finally get a contract back, signed.
But, she has to be there when we do the survey. We schedule a time and she cancels, then calls at 9PM Sunday night to see if we can do it the following Monday morning. I didn't get that message until Monday and couldn't so it anyway, already booked.
We finally agree to do it tomorrow but while on the phone scheduling the time she starts changing the scope. Now she needs a plot plan for a proposed deck she never mentioned previously, and already has pipes and bounds at the rear corners she previously wanted me to set.
I gave up. I sent her an email that we will refund her deposit in full, that we have already spent more time on the project trying to satisfy her needs than the whole project should have taken, and I was very sorry that we couldn't satisfy her.
"I would rather decline the project than have a dissatisfied client" was my closing sentence.
This is the second time I've felt compelled to this in over 30 years of surveying.
And it feels OK to me 🙂
Dtp
I wouldn't have given her that much time.
I had one guy call the other day on the phone of a company I just bought, gave him an estimate, he said do it.
A few minutes later he called my regular number (not knowing he was calling the same place) looking for estimates. When I told him he had already authorized me to do the job and asked why he was calling he said he thought my price on the other line was high so he was shopping.
I told him to keep shopping.
Congratulations. And very well done.
How does Uncle Paden put it? I have never lost money on a project I never had...?
Earlier this week I turned down a 36-acre survey, including elevations on some of it, from a good client I’ve done much work for. Not his fault, but:
The absentee owner wanted his realtor on site at all times to watch me, and the realtor was hot because I figured on a full day for starters “and it shouldn’t take more than an hour or two.” I explained I’m very well behaved, but no, he had to be there following me at all times. And, he is hot because the owner, with dementia, says there already was a flood certification so why was I doing it all over (because the maps changed, and the county says there has never been a flood certification on that site). And, the house isn’t in a flood plain anyway (but the county says it is). And, one of the people with too many fingers in this said they could get a plot plan drawn for $69 so there is no real need for a survey (hasn’t a clue obviously, but I smell trouble). And, they don’t need a real boundary, just close enough to give them an idea where it is. And, the really sharp hydrologist I work with very closely said he is booked for four weeks, so can’t help, and I’m not about to venture in that mess without him.
So here I am reading “Kidnapped” on my Kindle, which is a much better way to spend my time. And in about 30 minutes I’m going to take a nap.
I did the same thing last week ...
I did a survey for a closing in 2009, in 2013, she calls and says she needs to know where her property corners are because the fence guys said she has "extra land" ...
So, I met her out there, I relocate the corners I found in 2009, set up and check them, and they all look good, except her new fence is about 1.5' over one of her lines. She was expecting "extra land", not an encroachment of her fence. But, we talking for a while, I pulled the tape to show her my measurements matched the survey and plat. I used a box tape to show her how here side building ties shown on the survey could have been used to get the fence in the right place. She doesn't want to alert the neighbors to the encroachment, so she asks me not to flag the corners while she figures out what she's going to do about it. She pays me on site, and I go on my way.
Two weeks ago, nearly a year after I last heard from her, she calls and leaves me a NASTY voice mail, saying that I refused to flag her corners, that she has "extra land" she wants to claim and I refused to show her where it is, probably mentions having a lawyer involved 5 times in a 2 minute voice mail, then says her lawyer told her to get the surveyor back out there to flag the corners and not to pay for it ... and closes with "and my lawyer knows exactly who you are!" ...
So, my wife and I kick it around a little bit, and after much thought, I call her back and I agree to go back out there and flag her corners, and not charge her. I figure 1/2 and hour of work to get this lady off my back, then I'm done with her.
First thing she says when I call and introduce myself is, "I have extra land, and I want to know what you're going to do about it". I go on to remind her that, last time I was there, her fence was encroaching on the neighbor ... her response was "So What?".
So, I go back, I show her where the corners are. She's all nice and smiley, I ask her if she's satisfied, she says yes. Again, she asks me not to flag the corners?!? My wife, who never goes in the field with me, tags along to observe. I'm done with her, Great..
Two days later, she calls back and says, where is my new survey drawing? ...
Well, we never agreed to provide you with a new drawing, from day one, we've been hired to show you where the property corners are ... She asks how much it will cost to get a drawing, and we tell her we don't have enough information to produce a new drawing, and we are not going to do any more work.
She actually took that pretty well at first, but then called back an hour later, demanding a drawing, and went ballistic on my wife, reminding her another 2 or 3 times that she has a lawyer ...
That was about a week and half ago and haven't heard from her ...
It's not enjoyable, but I think it is necessary sometimes. I wish I could make myself turn some jobs down. I did one recently where I went out in a rush and finished the job on time. About two weeks later I finally met the client face to face. He didn't bring his checkbook, so he left without his survey. Next time I met him, a few days later, he pays me with two separate checks, one from him and one from a relative. As I'm driving away, the relative, whom I had never met or heard of until he gave me the check, calls and says he shouldn't have paid me because she was unhappy with the survey. I told her she wasn't my client and it turned into a big mess. I did go meet her immediately after depositing the check, but I'm still involved in this mess, and that was about a month ago. I've spent at least twice as much time dealing with it as I initially agreed upon, and it's not over yet.
Tell her the next time she calls you, you are going to call the neighbor and tell them her fence in on their property.
Send that relative a copy of the invoice with "paid in full" on it.
I remember someone telling a story where they tried for quite some time, a year or more, to get paid on a project from some company. One day the check came in. A day or two later, the company called and said the payment was a mistake, and asked for it to be send back. Instead they got a receipt with "paid in full" on it.
Many of you have heard me say it before but I will say it again.
Ninety percent of your headaches will come from ten percent of your clients.
I say fire twenty percent of the most troublesome clients and your life and practice will be much better for the effort. Better yet, don't take the job at all. Turn down those who give a hint of being a pain in your backside. Send them down the street and let them be someone else's problem.
Larry P
I have fired several clients over the years (usually real estate agents) for one reason or another, usually because they are idiots and have pissed me off one time too many.
I do not take getting screwed lightly.
I make it very clear to never call me again.
Now that we are very busy again, some of those previously fired clients are back trying their same ol BS like nothing ever happened.
I actually have a list that I have compiled for firms, individuals or real estate agents that I will never do work for again. Its not a long list but it is a list and you never get off said list.
Randy
Whatever happened to a contract with terms for payment included? I occasionally get an issue. Sorry to hear about the client grief. Just learned over the years to get retainers and step payments. If they don't like it, they can keep looking for a surveyor... doesn't bother me a bit. Good enough for lawyers, it's good enough for me.
> I have fired several clients over the years (usually real estate agents) for one reason or another, usually because they are idiots and have pissed me off one time too many.
>
> I do not take getting screwed lightly.
>
> I make it very clear to never call me again.
>
> Now that we are very busy again, some of those previously fired clients are back trying their same ol BS like nothing ever happened.
>
> I actually have a list that I have compiled for firms, individuals or real estate agents that I will never do work for again. Its not a long list but it is a list and you never get off said list.
>
> Randy
I may forgive, maybe. But I never forget.
B-)
:good:
So very true. I am a big fan of the different Tim Ferris books.
80/20 Rule, or Pareto's Principle
I have also found that 90% of management is required for one employee in a smaller firm. I have fired three different guys in the past ten years because they were the source of over 90% of the drama, and the problem is that it is always something in the grey area. Their whole life revolved around arguing why their way is better or they didn't do something the way they were told. I don't dole out instructions to the crews like they are manufacturing TNT, but sometimes there are basic principles of practice involved that I don't have time to argue over after I have already attempted to educate them.
>
> I have also found that 90% of management is required for one employee...their whole life revolved around arguing why their way is better or they didn't do something the way they were told.
:good: :good: :good: :good: :good:
That's awesome Tommy!
After reading all the replies and commentary, I'm sort of glad to have been just be the "field monkey" loaded with plenty of business cards with who to call. They can beetch at me all they want. I answer to my boss and no one else. If we were told to box it and leave, we box it and leave without nary another word spoke. Fortunately that only happened a couple of times. One lady seemed to not like that at all and continued to berate us all the way to the truck. I guess to egg some ill response from us so as to call the law - that would be my only guess. Seems like some people just want a fight and don't care who they get it from. Weren't going to from me!!
Or perhaps they were in need of some drama. Again, not from me. I absolutely hate drama. Some seem to be eat up with it.
Fired a client (note corrected spelling) today
Actually it was last evening. A fellow calls me from about 120 miles away. I did an elevation certificate for a relative of his a couple of months ago about 25 miles from my office. Also, the father of the fellow calling happens to be the mayor of a local city for which I have done many thousands of dollars of survey work through the years. So, I decide to listen to his story.
He tells me he has received a letter from FEMA. Eventually, he clarifies that his flood insurance company received a letter from FEMA demanding that an elevation certificate be acquired for this fellow's house. He tells me right off that he has contacted a couple of surveyors near his location and they must be crooks because they want an exorbitant amount to do this. (Anything smell bad yet?) Still attempting to be nice and helpful, I finally get him to tell me precisely where he is located. Meanwhile I'm pulling up both Google Earth and the FEMA Map Center to find the specific FIRM for his location. HOLY CRAP! This guy is on the low side of the river where its about two miles to the edge of Zone A. Yup, Zone A with no elevations determined. I know he's screwed. So, I'm also accessing his county's website to determine who might be the flood plain administrator. Start telling him how to make this connection when he explains that his wife had already been there and when she mentioned "elevation certificate" apparently she had started talking in tongues or something because no one could understand anything she said. I suggested he double check with his flood insurance agent for similar happenings in his county. Nope, that won't work. His agent is 120 miles away back where his dad is the mayor. After more discussion (over 45 minutes by now), I learn he has a basement!!!!! Long story short, I told him it would cost him more to have me spend all day driving out there and back and working in a place where I've never worked to try and save him money, which was not going to happen anyway. I finally convinced him to suck it up and call one of the local guys back and be very, very nice about it.
Turn down those who give a hint of being a pain in your backside. Send them down the street and let them be someone else's problem.
Absolutely right. The funny thing is, with my most troublesome clients, I had a feeling they were going to be trouble before I started working with them. I wish I could just learn to listen to my gut.
Gee, sometimes I feel like I'm "the other guy down the street."
It's been so lean here that even with contracts on $3500 jobs I find myself chasing the client fir payment for months if not years.
Don't you guys know that we are working for the realtors? But paid by someone else? 😛