Ethical?

Ethics, schmethics.

edit (great quandry by the way).

(Lurker mode back on).

This is where your great verbal skills come into play.
What can you do but explain it to the landowner. Tell him if you put the pin in he won't like it. He can put it in wherever he likes, but sooner or later it will cause him trouble. Anything that close to a pole is likely to be wrong.

I do a fair amount of this kind of work and any time I find a corner within 5' of a utility pole, unless it was recently set, in my book it's automatically suspect. Our local power coop's contractors are notorious in my book for disturbing property corners while augerring in utility poles and then 'resetting them', sometimes some distance away so as not to incur any wrath for it. It's kind of obvious when you pull the corner and find it's been twisted up into a helical shape. 😉

If it was me, I'd reset it where all the evidence indicates it belongs and if the fellow doesn't agree with the position, tell him 'with all due respect to you Sir/Mam, you are entitled to hire your own surveyor to verify it is indeed in the correct location.' Then back away, very slowly.

That's a touchy area. You know he will put it on you if you set it there in the "wrong" place. I think you are potentially liable if you put the pin in the ground.

> Much as I'd like to stay as far away from this crap as I can, I have agreed to meet this guy in the morning and "reset" the disturbed pin...of which I have a recorded location, but it ain't right.
>
> I can't resolve in my mind if this really professional or not. I can show this guy where the bent pin was most likely located. If I wave my hands over it in a professional manner, am I responsible for the pins location?
>
> lemme hear some chatter...I'm still on the fence with this one.

Well, from the testimony of both the pole inspectors and one of the landowners (presumably there are two interested in the location of the corner) the evidence is that there was a pin near the base of the pole. Landowner No. 1 wants you to replace the pin "right where it was", but his deed indicates that it probably was originally in a location about 8 ft. away.

I'd say that this is one of those situations where Landowner No. 2 needs to be involved. I wouldn't reset or replace an obviously disturbed marker in a position that in my professional judgment was incorrect and detrimental to the interest of Landowner No. 2 unless Landowner No. 2 gave informed consent in writing.

We had similar situations when we were the contact surveyors for a small town. Their water department had a knack for finding old irons set by unlicensed timber "surveyors" which many in the area considered correct because they worked for the timber company which had originally owned the land. And when destroyed wanted something set in the same position. Some of drawings we do have records on, the "surveyor" discounted a pipe he set 3-4 years earlier. Our take is similar to post monumentation along a road right of way. You are simply resetting a "monument" as close to the original location of the disturbed "monument" and not proving the correctness of the location. State that on the survey if it needs to be recorded or in our state, on the Land Corner Record.

Will the co-op be the one hiring you? If so, that would be the "client" I would be informing of the potential problems with the upcoming " falling of the chips ". I would treat this like any other boundary retracement project. Resetting a monument that represents a boundary corner deserves nothing less, in my opinion.

Your main duty is "to protect the interests of the public". You need to plot up his entire tract and show him the errors and where the "bent" pin should be. Tell him that you will reset the pin in the location that you have found to be proper at no cost to him. Then if he wants to have you correct the rest of the corners do so at your standard rate.
Tell him that state statutes require you to set the pin in the location that his previous deeds and plats call for. If he wants the pin reset in the wrong place he can call the previous surveyor to set the pin where he wants at that surveyor's liability.

You asked “am I responsible for the pins location”? Not unless you botch the re-set of the “recorded location” you described, and don’t file record of what you did.
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Set your pin in the “recorded location” (you suggested this is do-able), file a map showing what you did, showing where the found/bent pin is (hopefully very close), and stating that the purpose of your work and your contract was to establish the record location per such n such map. State that you have knowledge that there are possibly alternative locations, possibly as much as (say) 8 feet south from the set pin, and/or state “THIS IS NOT A BOUNDARY SURVEY”. File the map in the public records and give map copies to your client and the neighbors. The only parties not safe after this effort are anybody who chooses to rely on your pin, set in a location determined by others, not by you. Or save on Rolaids by convincing your client to pay for a boundary survey. Re-set the disturbed pin, set your own pin 8 feet away, then let the landowner use whatever pin he likes.

Ethical? How about business ethics?

“Much as I'd like to stay as far away from this crap as I can, I have agreed to meet this guy in the morning and "reset" the disturbed pin...of which I have a recorded location, but it ain't right.”

So as to appease your client, meet with the distraught person and ask him or her where the destroyed pin was located prior to its destruction. Believe me they will be happy to comply. Set a pin and tell them you are setting a “witness” corner until you, or the surveyor of their choice (so as to confirm the complainants outstanding abilities as an amateur surveyor), can certify it is correctly positioned.

B-)

Got Tina Turner singing in my head

'Oh what's love ethics got to do, got to do with it
What's love ethics but a second hand emotion
What's love ethics got to do, got to do with it
Who needs a heart license
When a heart license can be broken revoked.'

Ethical? How about business ethics?

You might take your GPS pole, with data collector, and carefully pull out the pin, and then plumb the pole, and reset it 0.04' to the east, and then tell him: This is where the pin was. BUT this is where the deed says it is supposed to be. It is a disturbed pin. Either before or after the pole was set. But, it does not match your deed. I don't know who placed it there. But that is where the pin was. Within a few inches.

Let him scratch his haid.

N

Is The Pole On Line?

8' from the corner on the line would not bother me at all. 8' in nowhere land does bother me.

For the life of me I would never survey a single lot, in general there are 5 adjoiners and a road involved.

BTW 8.5' is the difference from the sideline of a 33' ROW and a 50' ROW, or from a 50' ROW to a 66' ROW. No matter what the existing ROW is a pin could be set on the past record or future ROW depending on a surveyor's tendencies. Also I have seen 3 different deed ROW widths quite often along a road.

Paul in PA

Get the two coop employees to sign a sworn statement where they found and reset the iron an have it recorded as witness to the location.

Just because the deed, plat and other paperwork says something different, that does not mean the original surveyor did not set the monument at that location where it was disturbed.

Personally, I would not set a new monument. I would straighten the rod hand it to the guy and tell him to put it where it belongs.........

:-O

Because the bar has migrated so far from its record location I would assume it had help getting there, most likely in the hands of the protester. I would encourage your client (REC) to simply tell him it is not their problem. Then see what he does.

> I would encourage your client (REC) to simply tell him it is not their problem. Then see what he does.

That's going to be my angle, HC. I want to hear this guy explain where the pin came from, and what he's going to do if I can't help him.

Actually it lies near an area where there are two section corners, about 12 feet apart. It is a little confusing, but the newer of the two is the one relied upon by most of the recent (20 years) surveys. This property is the S/2, NW/4, NW/4, NW/4 and seems to be congruent with older of the two corners (that nobody has used, for some reason). The disturbed pin is 330.15' from his other front pin. That distance is within a foot of an aliquot division, both pins are just too far north.

I've decided: If I think this pin is an actual corner from a previous survey I will probably leave it alone and explain that a leaned over pin isn't a big deal in the "big picture" of life.

If I smell a rat and I think this guy is trying to trick someone into monumenting a position he dreamed up, I'm outa there...in a heartbeat. I've got no time for BS.

A short conversation (I've never spoken with him) with the property owner will tell me what I need to know. My keen sense of smell has bestowed me with the nick-name "human polygraph"... B-)

> I can't resolve in my mind if this really professional or not. I can show this guy where the bent pin was most likely located. If I wave my hands over it in a professional manner, am I responsible for the pins location?
>

You bet you are responsible. Why wouldn't you be? Maybe you can have all concerned parties (including all affected adjoiners, easement holders, etc.) sign a well worded document in which they swear you will never be held responsible? But, if they are willing to do that, why call a professional? Why would anyone be willing to pay a professional and then not expect the professional to stand behind his work?

> lemme hear some chatter...I'm still on the fence with this one.

OK. Here goes.........

Don't be on the fence. It sure sounds like you have to make a choice. Either you survey the boundary or you don't. If you choose to survey the boundary obviously you need to do more than tie in a few other corners and perform an analysis based solely on measurements. At this point all that has done is reveal an ambiguity - a discrepancy between "record" measurements and where the "pin" was found. You have only just begun. You need all the evidence - record evidence, physical evidence, parol evidence, and especially any and all evidence of reliance (or lack thereof) to determine where the line/corner has been established. If you are going to claim that the corner has been illegally moved, you are going to need more evidence than just a measurement or two.

Easy choice, explain what it is going to take (time & $$$$) to express a well reasoned professional opinion that is supported by the facts and the law. If someone really wants you to do a thorough and correct job, they will pay you to do so. If not, walk away. If they only want someone to "put the marker in the ground", hand someone else the hammer - any monkey can pound a rebar into the ground, but as you know, a professional does much more.

I'm sure the thought has crossed your mind that this guy wants you to reset the marker back to where he moved it too and then bless it with your license. Maybe that's not one of the possibilities. I know that certain types of rebar have legs.

> A short conversation (I've never spoken with him) with the property owner will tell me what I need to know.

Well, just be sure to ask him what he thinks about the Organic Act and keep the recorder running if you can get him talking.