Generally the contracts for highway or utility work call for replacing disturbed monuments in the position they were in, or on line if a taking. It would be too expensive to require a resurvey of every parcel. But in this case you have knowledge that it is in the wrong location. I think the coop is required to replace it where it was as it is personal property they have damaged, and you are required to notify all affected parties that you have information that it is not correct for marking a boundary line in case that is what any of the parties think it is.
Duane
> I think the coop is required to replace it where it was as it is personal property they have damaged, and you are required to notify all affected parties that you have information that it is not correct for marking a boundary line in case that is what any of the parties think it is.
That's the pickle about this whole thing. The co-op is willing to admit they disturbed a rebar in the ground. My pickle is I believe anybody BUT me can stick the pin back in the ground straight.
But then, does a pin that was stuck back in the ground by maintenance personnel lose any of its positional authority?
The property owner has stated he wants it "put back where it's suppose to go". Nobody seems to understand that where it was and where it's suppose to go might be two different places.
I've got my truck keys jingling in my pocket right now, I'm fixin' to go meet this guy and see what I can do. It should be fun...(?!)
Duane
Good luck! Let's hope the messenger isn't crucified for the message.
Questions On Corners
Actually it lies near an area where there are two section corners, about 12 feet apart. It is a little confusing, but the newer of the two is the one relied upon by most of the recent (20 years) surveys. This property is the S/2, NW/4, NW/4, NW/4 and seems to be congruent with older of the two corners (that nobody has used, for some reason). The disturbed pin is 330.15' from his other front pin. That distance is within a foot of an aliquot division, both pins are just too far north.
Are the pins to the East(West?) 10' too far North also?
Have you an explanation for the two section corners?
Has this owner been in occupation more than 20 years?
Your job is to replace someone's corner marker, which may be right or wrong. I am not sure it is your job to prove it right or wrong.
Hmmm? No mention of fences or other occupation?
Paul in PA
To do anything less than find the true corner position would be tantamount to unethical. Money or time cannot be the consideration. Do the job the way you would if the landowner was your client. Accept or reject this pin based on the totality of the evidence. The pin may mark the corner or as you suspect it could be a goat peg.
We all know
it's just a grounding rod, anyways. 😉
On the ethics question, it sums up like this to me:
If you are going to put it in the ground, you better be d*mn proud of it. Side note to the "expert measurer" crew: Even those experiences that are shared here indicate they are strong in their professional opinion and willing to defend... just may be their opinion is not well seasoned (accuracy vs. precision, again.)
On a business note, if your client knows their sub has a history of knocking around monuments, shouldn't they have a contingency in place to resolve this issue?
With that, and I believe you stated their is no monument where you expect it should be (8-ft away), you survey and place the pin, accordingly.
When "old chapped-ass" isn't happy, you offer that he can hire his own surveyor.
With that, you're right where you would be if you engage him on the front-end and ask if he wants to cost-share with your cllent to reset the pin (and your client is 50% to the better).
Or, you tell'em all to get 'bent' and call it an early week. Monday always allows for a differnt perspective, right?
Good luck
(edit: when I first posted, replied to a sub-post/ not the original).
Osmose crews
"On a business note, if your client knows their sub has a history of knocking around monuments, shouldn't they have a contingency in place to resolve this issue?"
I have seen numerous Osmose crews working on power pole projects. Most here couldn't hold a candle to help them. Their primary tool is a long handled shovel. They dig out around the base of the pole about the width of the shovel to a depth of two to three feet. The pole is inspected. Then they wrap the pole with a special material and tack it to the pole. Then all of the dirt that came out of the hole goes back into the hole. Then the diggers walk to the next pole and repeat the process.....all day long, every day of the week, every week of the year.
BTW, most of those workers have last names that might end with "ez", but the work they do is most definitely not E-Z.
Boundary survey
This is a boundary survey. The electric company disturbed his corner. The electric company should pay you to perform a boundary survey to replace it. I agree with Kent. Talk to both owners about the location. If they both testify that the location is at the base of the pole. I would use signed statements, and file a record of survey, if you are in a semi-enlightened state...You have already found an "interesting situation". It may get more "interesting" yet.
Down on the lower Kenai, the phone company had us put the phone pedistals 5' from property corners, electric coop seemed to like placing a pole on the corners. At least they did in the subdivision I have property in, lots are 300' wide, perfect spacing for power poles!
-JD-
This is great way of handling the situation if it’s a point on-line between only the two property owners.
Ethical? - update - this is a hoot!
I arrived out at this fella's place this morning, and immediately got swarmed by six (yes, count them...6) howling hounds. It took 15 minutes to make friends with all six. Their was a Catahoula that never quite got used to me, but I finally got scratch his muzzle.
This guy has a brittle and yellowed copy of a survey from 1968 signed by Woodrow Bowers. I've never heard of him, and he never made it to licensure..but that's not an issue; in 1968 surveyors weren't licensed in Oklahoma!
He showed me where the other three corners were located. Just as noted by Woodrow (two were referenced to trees, the other two were referenced to the power poles). The brands on the poles showed they were dated 1966. Same poles. We dug around and found the "disturbed" pin in question. It WAS leaning a bit.
Old Woodrow's survey of the S/2 of the NW/4 of the NW/4 of the NW/4 was 'zakly 330' x 660'...a parallelogram with a 1' and 18" lean off of square.
In 15 minutes I had some good locations on the other three pins and ol' Woodrow was pretty damn close! I measured about 30" different on his angle work than he did in 1968 and his 660 was 659.87' today.
I straightened up the "damaged" pin and actually moved it about 0.22'. When I was done it fit the other pins AND Woody's refs by about 0.05'! Case closed.
Now a modern breakdown of the section would actually move the S/2, NW, NW, NW around quite a bit. But I'm retracing a 1968 survey. I found all four corners, and tweaked the one that had been disturbed. Old grumpy property owner was happy and I made it to the drive through in time to get a biscuit and coffee.
Life is good.
Ethical? - update - this is a hoot!
Lots of us will sleep better tonight.
Ethical? - update - this is a hoot!
A great example of why the practice of running around the exterior of the section and calculating the interior aliquot corners by chapter 3 methods, and calling them "controlling" is NOT acceptable modern boundary surveying.
Good job! Now submit a healthy invoice.
BTW, You did acquire a copy of the old survey for future reference, didn't ya?
Ethical? - update - this is a hoot!
> BTW, You did acquire a copy of the old survey for future reference, didn't ya?
Boy is it nice nowadays to just snap a couple of pics or vid with a smartphone. Borrowing a survey to have it photocopied was always tough, today, grab a pic and go!
Ethical? - update - this is a hoot!
> > BTW, You did acquire a copy of the old survey for future reference, didn't ya?
>
> Boy is it nice nowadays to just snap a couple of pics or vid with a smartphone. Borrowing a survey to have it photocopied was always tough, today, grab a pic and go!
[sarcasm]Yeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh.... but it's (a picture) not at scale!!! [/sarcasm] (that's my OCD talking) 😉
Ethical? - update - this is a hoot!
> I arrived out at this fella's place this morning, and immediately got swarmed by six (yes, count them...6) howling hounds. It took 15 minutes to make friends with all six. Their was a Catahoula that never quite got used to me, but I finally got scratch his muzzle.
>
> This guy has a brittle and yellowed copy of a survey from 1968 signed by Woodrow Bowers. I've never heard of him, and he never made it to licensure..but that's not an issue; in 1968 surveyors weren't licensed in Oklahoma!
>
> He showed me where the other three corners were located. Just as noted by Woodrow (two were referenced to trees, the other two were referenced to the power poles). The brands on the poles showed they were dated 1966. Same poles. We dug around and found the "disturbed" pin in question. It WAS leaning a bit.
>
> Old Woodrow's survey of the S/2 of the NW/4 of the NW/4 of the NW/4 was 'zakly 330' x 660'...a parallelogram with a 1' and 18" lean off of square.
>
> In 15 minutes I had some good locations on the other three pins and ol' Woodrow was pretty damn close! I measured about 30" different on his angle work than he did in 1968 and his 660 was 659.87' today.
>
> I straightened up the "damaged" pin and actually moved it about 0.22'. When I was done it fit the other pins AND Woody's refs by about 0.05'! Case closed.
>
> Now a modern breakdown of the section would actually move the S/2, NW, NW, NW around quite a bit. But I'm retracing a 1968 survey. I found all four corners, and tweaked the one that had been disturbed. Old grumpy property owner was happy and I made it to the drive through in time to get a biscuit and coffee.
>
> Life is good.
Aloha, Uncle Paden:
I enjoyed reading all your short stories! This one particularly shows to a novice and survey student like me how professionals work! I always read posts on how things gone wrong etc. This is really nice one with happy handing and professionally handled. Thank you for sharing.
I think a talented TV show producer should make TV series on surveyors. Just like Crime Scene Investigation and forensic science--something unknown to general public once upon a time. Now every kid and adult know what it is. Your stories will make several good episodes! 🙂
Ethical? - update - this is a hoot!
That's just plain cool. Love a good story with a cast of characters and a happy ending.
And what would the moral of this story be might you share?
It would seem there be some small lesson here.
Good work.
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
Ethical? - update - this is a hoot!
> BTW, You did acquire a copy of the old survey for future reference, didn't ya?
His wife ran me a couple of copies while we were outside cranking our jaws. I wasn't going to get out of there without one! 😉
Meet the dude, tell him it's screwed up, show him why it's screwed up, tell him that he's exceedingly lucky that the co-op is footing the bill to fix an issue that may have cost him dough later on. Let him roll on about fences and 7 years and squatting, then, explain, politely, why he's wrong, and work to fix it right.
That's the ethical thing to do and you make your client look good, and you get an excellent referral from a guy who never paid a dime to have you work his issue out. That's goodwill that you cannot put a price on brother.
Ethical? - update - this is a hoot!
That is the best solution possible for all.
Always a good day to follow a decent survey from the past and find the original in place, even when slightly disturbed and bent over.
The CamScan app on my phone gets near daily use on and off the job. Especially for that paperwork people bring out from nowhere.
I always mention that it is worth the money to have it recorded into public record for the future.
:good: