I have been having a rather lengthy email discussion with someone who is interested in buying an 8 acre foreclosure property. He is doing his own Due Diligence and has been asking me about the value of having a survey done prior to purchasing. Naturally, I told him it was to disclose size and location of what he was actually buying and the encumbrances that this title insurance policy would not cover. This was his response:
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While reading your previous e-mail about surveys and what you said about knowing exactly what you're buying a question came to me, Don't the parcel ID and corresponding county map give you a pretty good idea for the size and location of the parcel? I mean if you look at the boundaries of the property on a map and then walk the fence line which seems to correspond don't you have a pretty good idea for what you're buying? Also if the REO agent provides you a listing which states you are buying 8 acres, with house and outbuildings, can't you feel pretty confident that is what you'll be getting?
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I responded, but I was wondering how this group would answer.
Oh, wow! Ignorance is bliss. If someone tells you something, it must be the truth, right? Their vested interest wouldn't have any impact would it?
Just last night I was studying over some mineral leases for a fellow I've known for years who is attempting to settle his father's estate properly. When dear old Dad went to Heaven he left behind six eighty-acres tracts so that each of his six children could have an 80, free and clear. Due to an Indian Treaty Boundary slicing through the primary section four of the eighties involve Government lots rather than the standard aliquot descriptions. There are two mineral leases, each naming numerous tracts. Lot 4 is never mentioned in either lease. But, there is a mysterious Lot 7 mentioned. Obviously, there was a typo made decades ago that has continued to be used in all later documents as Lot 7 must be Lot 4. There is no Lot 7.
Also, to complicate matters even more, dead old Dad must have owned another 80 once upon a time and sold it but reserved the mineral rights. In a perfect world, each of the six kids (65 and younger) would end up with the mineral rights for the specific tract they own. Not going to work out that way, I am sure. And, who would get the rights to the 80 that none of them own. This will only get worse over time as I expect the generation getting the inheritance now to make a similar pass down a generation from now.
Not really dude......
I have been having one of those back and forth communications the last month.
Friday I was in the neighbor hood and decided to check out the place and found that two of the monuments are in the wrong place (out of position by 10-ft from deed calls) and this morning the seller has notified the buyer and I quote:
"got that affidvt signed so they didn't have to come out of pocket for a brand new survey"
Contacted the Title Company that prepared the Commitment of Title and ask for a copy of a 1999 survey they refer to in every other exception on Schedule B.
:whistle:
I tell them to look at the parcel ID disclaimer on the face of the document. Once you read and understand it, it should be clear to them.
Lamon Miller, post: 335531, member: 553 wrote: I tell them to look at the parcel ID disclaimer on the face of the document. Once you read and understand it, it should be clear to them.
Unfortunately, our property appraiser does not have any disclaimers that I can find on his website. So, I guess everything must be perfectly accurate.
I think you could send him a link to the "Question about surverying" thread that has been going around for 2 weeks now.
I don't think I 'd try to convince him. There are none so blind as those who will not see. If you push too hard he won't come to you when he realizes he is in over his head. Just make your pitch once, as you already have, and let it be. The fact is that a lot of people roll the dice this way and only an unlucky few come up snake eyes.
The story I always tell is about a client we had at the first company I worked for. He bought a 60 acre rural property and then called us for a survey several months after purchasing the property.
Long story short, because of a really poor description of the much larger parent tract and the fact that his tract was the last parcel to come out he ended up having 24 acres instead of 60.
I think you should acknowledge that he has a pretty good guess-timate on what he is buying with all his parameters in place. More often than not, that would be correct. Having some particular cases that show when things went wrong would be beneficial. It's a matter of weighing whether having a 90å¡ confidence level is good enough, or if the land is worth a lot, do you want a 99å¡ confidence level. It would be better to know up front what he owns and how much he has to work with than fighting a boundary battle if he is in that 5% (or whatever the percentage) of being in the wrong.
I have to sympathize with someone who is buying a property for $2,000 and is confronted with needing a $2,000 survey. The value of the property they are buying should drive that a bit.
"Yes, always trust a Real Estate Agent blindly and never question his/her word; for the location of boundary lines is something that they have studied for years and are foremost authorities on. Also they are in this for your best interest and are not fueled by making a sale and moving on to the next property while maintaining no professional liability holding them to their word on where a boundary line is..."
There is a simple way to handle this.
1. Show him a parcel where the tax map is obviously wrong, like through a house or something.
2. Tell him that real estate agents only get paid when a deal closes and then ask him if such a person is really looking after his best interests.
Pretty good answers. Here was my actual response:
Concerning the information and mapping that the County Property Appraiser provides, it is good for the purpose that it serves, which is to facilitate the maintaining of a roll for levying taxes based on property values. However, while their information is useful, it is not binding in a court of law when it comes to ownership. What maters is the description contained within the deed and the grantors capacity to sell it. In the case of the 12 acres, the property appraiser still showed the ownership as one parcel vested with the prior owner (the property appraiser had not updated his records yet).
Fencing is often indicative of the location of boundaries, but not always. I've seen plenty of cases where owners would build fences of convenience without knowing the true location of the boundaries of their property (or their neighbors property). I noticed in your particular case that the property appraisers mapping (for what its worth) shows the fence lines not being on the boundaries. However, if I were betting and knowing what little I know now about the parcel, I would bet the fences where probably closer to the true boundaries than the property appraiser is showing. But without doing a survey, I can't be certain.
As far as what your agent's listing says, again that is not binding in a court of law when it comes to ownership. If anything were to go wrong, I suppose you could sue them for civil damages for not having an accurate listing. However, if you have a standard real estate contract (which was more than likely written up by Florida Association of Realtor attorneys), you will probably find language which shields them from liability (and they can say they advised you to get a survey).
As you can probably see, when it comes to purchasing real estate, it's buyer beware. Most of the people around a buyer (realtors, bankers, insurance agents) have a vested interest in a buyer purchasing a piece of property, otherwise they don't get their commission. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I think buyers should realize that and make informed decisions.
If you have any further questions, please feel free to give me a call.
I do not comment on these matters when I am surveying because as a field guy it is beyond my purview to be expressing much, if anything, to the general public, but in my private life if someone says they trust a real estate agent about boundary I ask them if they also trust car dealers about undercarriage protection.
My favorite one is the screaming neighbor when you show to plat the piece next door going on about how their real estate agent told them the land would never be developed.
good response Bow Tie Surveyor.
I had personal experience as a city surveyor, assisting the GIS people.
many areas were rubber-sheeted county tax maps, some were the result of some crude measuring, some were from digital copies of tract maps provided by the original surveyor (on true Lat/Lon), and some were just pain confused messes. the city GIS staff was small and the creation of the system was new, so their memory helped... Bonus: we had Excellent high resolution ortho photography of the whole city on true Lat/Lon with recoverable monuments.
in particular, I was confounded by the 3 sides of the City Corporation Yard fitting the ortho, field positions of the boundary, but the 3rd side was maybe 15 feet off. It turns out that the GIS team remembered that they saw that the Boundary did not fit the Fence so they moved the Boundary! Problem was, the Fence was intentionally constructed OFF the line, the True Line was on a steep bank.
You are more patience than me. My experience is that most likely this person is not looking for an objective opinion. They will keep going through the internet collecting data to support their argument.
I would simply say in my 40+ years in this profession that I believe not getting a survey is like not having health insurance. You only need it when you need it. Personally, I don't believe the risk is worth the possible reward. Let me know if you decide to get a survey.
The real question for this type of situation is straightforward in my mind. 'Are you a gambler?' Do you enjoy making bets when the outcome is not assured? If so then you probably don't need a survey. Roll the dice there are no skeletons hidden in the closet. If you're like me you'll want to remember the old adage 'Caveat Emptor'. Buyer beware. I can then relate to them the experience I had doing a survey that included a 5 acre lake side parcel purchased through a tax foreclosure sale with a clerk's deed. Only hiccup in whole affair was the parcel didn't actually exist. It was an unsurveyed remainder of a government lot split in the 1960's where the remainder was placed on the wrong side so that it overlapped the adjoining government lot. The people that purchased the lot paid taxes on it for 15 years and had a 100k mortgage tagged to the parcel, that did not exist. The couple had plans of building their dream retirement home on the 'property', but didn't feel it was worth the expense of having it surveyed.
Your call.
Bow Tie Surveyor, post: 335575, member: 6939 wrote: Pretty good answers. Here was my actual response:
Good response. I would also ask him how much E&O Insurance his REO agent has...
lmbrls, post: 335642, member: 6823 wrote:
I would simply say in my 40+ years in this profession that I believe not getting a survey is like not having health insurance. You only need it when you need it. Personally, I don't believe the risk is worth the possible reward. Let me know if you decide to get a survey.
we live in different worlds with different customs.
I was born and raised in California. surveyed there mostly for about 40 years with a few years in Oregon and Arizona, more or less. Never a renter, always a land owner.
Not once did I survey (or pay others to survey) a single property I owned in California or Oregon or Arizona. I saw no need. It is not the custom, nor required by lenders. (Yes, I did read and understand the title policies... very few do.)
Here in Mexico the land registration process and final documentation includes a survey, so having surveys here dates back about 19 years.
