A subdivision was created in 1920 consisting of many 40' wide lots (about 110' deep). Some buyers over the years purchased multiple lots, some just a single lot. The subject parcel is a 40' wide lot with a house and detached garage. The owners on either side have three lots (120' wide) each.?ÿ
A family member is buying the house on the 40' wide lot. She asked if she should get a survey, I said I would look at it. The real estate company offered her a survey for "$250 (no stakes) or $450 (stakes)". So yesterday afternoon I go to look at it, and right away I found a cross cut in the corner of the concrete driveway, 17.5 feet off of the centerline of the road, right where one would expect it to be. There are two drives, one on either side of the house (south and north). On the north side of the north drive (with the cut) is a large garage close to the property line, south of the south drive on the other side it is all grass, with a house on the middle of the three lots set back from the road. The detached garage in the back is close to the line as well, but on the lot. I pulled out a tape, and measured 40' across the front. That falls right on the north side of the south drive, meaning that drive, part of a retaining wall, bushes, etc are all on the adjacent property.?ÿ
Here are two images from the county GIS. The north property line is actually a bit closer to the edge of the concrete drive (if the cross cut is correct) than it shows, which puts the south property line right along the south edge of the house. She thought the property line was on the south side of the south driveway, about 20' south of where it actually is.?ÿ
I find it hard to believe that someone could construct the driveway, retaining wall, landscaping, etc on the adjacent property without anyone knowing that it was on the wrong lot. Yet I can find no deed, agreement, etc on file. The adjoiner on the south side has owned the house since 1977. The subject property (built in 1930) has changed hands several times recently. It was sold at a sheriff's sale to the bank in 2009 for $2000, and then sold twice since then. In all cases that I can find (deeds older than about 1986 are not available digitally in this county) the deeds read all the same, calling out lot 36, and then a metes and bounds which replicates what is shown on the subdivision plat, with no mention of any additional purchases or agreements. No idea when all of that was built, but the retaining wall looks new, the drive looks older. Also, the lateral from the house to the street is under that south driveway, meaning the sewer line is on the other property as well.?ÿ
She has a closing on Monday. She called the real estate agent, who said she never had this situation before (an encroachment found just before closing).?ÿ
Any thoughts??ÿ
It sounds like the buyer and seller should extend the closing date out so they can fully investigate the non-digital deed history to determine if the land under the second driveway is actually part of the sale.
...Any thoughts??ÿ
Yeah. First, the closing date is probably going to be placed at a later date to be determined.
Second, a good title examination should be performed to see if there has indeed been a conveyance of a portion of the north side of the adjacent lot.?ÿ Maybe they didn't?ÿlook past 1986 either.?ÿ If the improvements are new enough possibly the local municipality might have a copy of the drive (or improvements) permit that could shed some light on things.
Interesting that no one found it until now.
Edit:?ÿ Just wondering...Are there any pins or monuments on the south side of the south drive??ÿ That would, of course, lend credence to a conveyance and not a "land grab" on the mostly vacant area.
Please keep us informed on the outcome.
That's what surveys are for.
N
That's what surveys are for.
N
Deal killers.
So there is an APEARANCE of an encroachment on one or both sides.?ÿ The drives can't both fit in 40 ft. Definitely something to get resolved, and some additional research is called for.
I wouldn't base the position on a single cut cross.?ÿ At a minimum you need to look for pins in the back of this lot and across the front of the whole block.?ÿ Use the street centers at the ends of the block to check if nothing else is found.
Add up the distances on both sides of the back line.?ÿ Are there any inconsistencies??ÿ Hard to read numbers could have resulted in shifts in the GIS.
If I were trying to buy it, I would tell the seller I would proceed when they could show me a survey with stakes and title report saying I would own both driveways, and at that time I would reimburse them the $450.
Let the seller do the work and have the expense (far more than $450) that they should have required when they bought it, including a lot line adjustment if needed.
Looks like 1009-E-101 is going to have to buy some land from 1009-E-99, or some construction removal if 99 won??t sell.?ÿ ??ÿ
In my 40 years of surveying I've had to buy two strips of land because of my mistakes. One was a 7.5' strip because of a house mislocation and the other was a o.67' strip in a very exclusive subdivision because of a driveway encroachment. The 0.67' strip was 3 times as expensive as the 7.5' strip. Didn't use E&O just paid cash. (Not Paden)
Any surveyor that says they have never screwed something up is, in my opinion, a big fib teller.?ÿ ? ?ÿ
I am going out today to do a survey and locate the dwelling and garage and check the more corners on this lot and the adjoiners. However, this area is notorious for not having irons pins or anything at all at the corners. All I did yesterday was tape across the front and realize there was 60 foot of frontage on a 40 foot lot. So one or the other driveway is encroaching. If it is the side with the cross cut, then the detached garage is an encroachment on that side, which is a much bigger problem. But it definitely looks like the encroachment is on the other side (south). I went to the township and asked if there were any permits issued for the driveway and the wall, they are going to check and call me later today.?ÿ
I found aerial imagery from 1993 (no driveway) and 2003 (driveway existed). So somewhere between 15 and 25 years. I think PA is 21 years for adverse possession.?ÿ
Here are pics I took this morning:
Looks like 1009-E-101 is going to have to buy some land from 1009-E-99, or some construction removal if 99 won??t sell.?ÿ ??ÿ
In my 40 years of surveying I've had to buy two strips of land because of my mistakes. One was a 7.5' strip because of a house mislocation and the other was a o.67' strip in a very exclusive subdivision because of a driveway encroachment. The 0.67' strip was 3 times as expensive as the 7.5' strip. Didn't use E&O just paid cash. (Not Paden)
Any surveyor that says they have never screwed something up is, in my opinion, a big fib teller.?ÿ ? ?ÿ
That brings up a good question.?ÿ I'm new to the "Small Business Surveyor" game.?ÿ How much is E&O on average?
How much is E&O on average?
A lot, but a lot less than you could be sued for.
That brings up a good question.?ÿ I'm new to the "Small Business Surveyor" game.?ÿ How much is E&O on average?
Give NSPS a call about insurance. You will find out that it depends on the amount and type of work that you do in a any given year and how long you have been doing this. The application process is daunting but the result is worth it. I've been in business 40 years, have thousands of surveys that I am liable for and it costs us about $3K per year. But I don't do much construction staking and have never been on site that had a nuclear reactor.?ÿ
John, I think the research you are doing will result in a positive result for all.
"That brings up a good question.?ÿ I'm new to the "Small Business Surveyor" game.?ÿ How much is E&O on average?"
As Daniel posted the rates are based on the type of surveying you do as well as your yearly gross billings and your deductible (aka Money out of your pocket). My carrier considers house layout "construction surveying" and rated accordingly.
Whatever you do buy it, it might save you from financial disaster. Also it is a good idea to discuss protection of personal assets with your attorney. The cost is well worth the peace of mind that accompanies it.
Just my 0.2'?ÿ?ÿ ??ÿ
During the deed research, I would also be looking to see if this lot was owned by either adjoiner or a family member at some point in time.
I have seen family do things like this and never think twice about it. It is not their problem 50 years later.
James
I wouldn't base any conclusions on one chiseled X of unknown origin, but if they have more then 40' of improvements there is certainty an issue that should be cleared up before closing, and by pointing that out you have already provided them a service...Any solution will surely involve checking the pre-1986 record.
As of now I am thinking it was never surveyed, so I would not blame a surveyor (yet). Seems pretty far fetched that a surveyor would mark out a 60 wide frontage on a 40' wide lot.?ÿ
I asked the township if they have anything, unfortunately the guy there is new (2017), but he is going to check. I would think if they applied for a permit to build driveway (old) or retaining wall (new) that it would need a survey attached.?ÿ
I am going to first recommend that they postpone closing....
?ÿ
There has been little or no mention of deed research in this thread. Never mind the plat and GIS - what do the deeds say? Very possibly a 20' strip was exchanged long ago, before there were subdivision control laws (are there such laws in this area now?) and snappy tax lot mapping. If so, maybe it didn't get into the GIS mapping.
In my area the title company can obtain the current vesting deed for any property within seconds.?ÿ ?ÿA reading of the vesting deeds for the subject property and it's southerly adjoiner may well contain references that will clear things up tout de suite.?ÿ?ÿ
The thoughts that it might have been a handshake deal between family members makes sense to me, I will have to go to the courthouse to trace ownership back to the 1920's when the subdivision was made.?ÿ
Generally, when I see something like this; it's because, back in the day, it was all owned by 1 person (or family) and they didn't care, didn't think it was a big deal, or just forgot that they did it that way.
At any rate, it appears that acquiescence has taken place. They should file a quit claim deed and be done with it; if all parties involved are in agreement. If not, lawyer up...
I just discovered this yesterday afternoon, I went back in the deeds as far as I could from the office last night, older deeds are not digital. All only mention the lot numbers (35, 36, etc) and dimensions, no mention of any agreement. Title report makes no mention at all. I need to go to the courthouse, but I am leaving tomorrow at 6 AM to go to Argentina for the weekend, I will be back Sunday, then I have to go to Peru/Chile on Tuesday for two weeks, so I am advising they postpone the closing date (scheduled for Monday 11/19)?ÿ
