We've got a whole batch of surveyors that have never:
Read a vernier.
Used a tape, (200' steel or the like) to measure long range.
Depended on plumb bobs.
Performed a sunshot.
(Ya ever let the sun shine backward through a transit, and onto a clipboard, with crosshairs?)
Some can't drive a stick shift.
Without these historic connections, retracement becomes more and more of a chore.
I spend many hours doing retracement.
I'd really like to at least see some sort of movie made, on "how it's done" in the "before batteries" era. We are all dying off.?ÿ
Is there anybody interested in putting together a film on this sort of thing?
As time flies by, we are moving far far and more from battery-less surveying, and we have fewer and fewer that could make this film.
I'd just like to preserve it.
Nate
Nate
You may want to consider joining Luddites R Us.
I hear their conventions are a blast from the past. They have entire afternoons devoted to sinking plumb bobs into trees.
It is more important to know how to deal with the data from those older methods than it is to know how to pull a tape or use a Bob.?ÿ I have done those tasks and I was ok.?ÿ I have input dozens of old field books into rw5 form to readjust with least squares combining the old data with more recent data.?ÿ It is more important to understand how to weight the data.?ÿ Otherwise, it is all just measurement.
Driving stick should be an essential skill.?ÿ I do not drive stick often enough but it is more often than I use a 200' tape or a plumb bob.
I realized the other day that I'm the only one in the survey department who knows what keel is and what surveyors used it for. And I'm the only one that ever pulled a steel tape....
Much of the time I'm retracing work done in chains. Never used one, although I have used a staff compass.?ÿ One of the regional surveyors associations made a short film that I used to show in class.?ÿ It's pretty good, shows measuring with chain and in period costumes, and about a dispute involving Aaron Burr and Hamilton as the opposing attorneys.?ÿ I think I still have a cd copy of it but not sure how I would share over internet.?ÿ Might have to get permission first too.?ÿ More about teaching retracement than measurement.
Duane,
I would love to see this video.?ÿ I have a 16 year old son who is interested in surveying.?ÿ I think something like this would go a great distance in helping him understand the history and methods involved.?ÿ If you find a copy that you can legally share please message me.
How about doing topo and site map with a stadia transit and Philly rod.
Do a level run.
Or, do a level run and then do the topo with a stadia level and Philly rod.
Do a house locate off a sideline setup, using a tape for distance plus a tape parallel to house sides, or do a swing tape to get perps to house corners.
Did a stream locate having 3 culverts located off the large lot, 1 at road 2 at RR to rear with a compass and pacing in the crick branches.
Eyeballed a couple of topo maps for septic as-builts or design after field crew had shot property and house corners. It was better than rubber banding them in the office, plus I had to be on site anyway to single handed tape some existing cleanouts, lids and wells.
I was doing a lot of engineering surveys before doing survey surveys.
Would any of today's crews look for slices on granite curb faces?
Paul in PA, PE, PLS
Interesting,?ÿ I been busy for months, and when I pop back in, the first post I come across is this one.?ÿ A movie would be a great thing to have.?ÿ The course we put on last year in the Texas panhandle sending "crews" out using compasses, chains, and old field notes looking to recover "original" monuments seemed to be well received, and quite a point of discussion.?ÿ The young folks in the groups got a lot of informative stuff from the older folks who were enjoying getting to show the whys and hows of "old days" surveying.?ÿ One of the biggest discussions was a Party Chief showing his crew he knew they had a discrepancy in bearing because they hit the creek call too early, and by doing so, they should focus their search for the mound to the right of line.?ÿ We are offering the course again this year, and I guess attendance will let us know how much interest there really is.?ÿ I am hoping to find a drone operator to at least get us some photos and film of the class.
Duane,
I would love to see this video.?ÿ I have a 16 year old son who is interested in surveying.?ÿ I think something like this would go a great distance in helping him understand the history and methods involved.?ÿ If you find a copy that you can legally share please message me.
I'll take a look for it.
I've done all that and still drive a stick shift in both my work and leisure vehicles (and I still carry and use a plumb bob). But conspicuous in its omission from your list is something I (and, I suspect, others on this board) have also done: calculate acreage from latitudes and departures. I'm damned if I could do one that way today even if you pointed a shotgun at me.
I've done all that and still drive a stick shift in both my work and leisure vehicles (and I still carry and use a plumb bob). But conspicuous in its omission from your list is something I (and, I suspect, others on this board) have also done: calculate acreage from latitudes and departures. I'm damned if I could do one that way today even if you pointed a shotgun at me.
When I was in business, I only?ÿpurchased field vehicles with stick shifts, 4-speed 4wd, pickups and suburbans. When you are 40 miles from nowhere in the boonies, with a stick shift, if the vehicle would run, and it wouldn't start due to a dead battery or some other little quirk, you could get it started by pushing it or coasting downhill. With an automatic transmission, your dead in the water?ÿwithout having a way to jump start it. Many times I was thankful?ÿthat I had a stick shift?ÿthat saved a long walk or having to spend the night out in the wilds in?ÿwinter conditions.?ÿ
here is a something to ponder
Colorado USED to have a 4 year survey degree program for 30 years. I was on the PLSC commiittee as well as an enrolled student for the last 10 years. The professor taught old school fundamentals, but would have several day long workshops on the new technology. A canyon sized divide developed between the "fundamentals" faction and the"teach them only new button technology" faction. I personally wanted to learn the fundamentals. I had been mentored, and mentoring is gone, I still belive that the methods of non electric surveying that built this country should be passed on and REQUIRED learning for anyone hired to retrace old surveys. But, our debates became so heated that some of the committed started speaking out against such boring classes using outdated tools no bless and whistles, so the University discontinued the program.?ÿ
here is a something to ponder
-
Colorado USED to have a 4 year survey degree program for 30 years. I was on the PLSC commiittee as well as an enrolled student for the last 10 years. The professor taught old school fundamentals, but would have several day long workshops on the new technology. A canyon sized divide developed between the "fundamentals" faction and the"teach them only new button technology" faction. I personally wanted to learn the fundamentals. I had been mentored, and mentoring is gone, I still belive that the methods of non electric surveying that built this country should be passed on and REQUIRED learning for anyone hired to retrace old surveys. But, our debates became so heated that some of the committee started speaking out against such boring classes using outdated tools no bells and whistles, so the University discontinued the program.?ÿ
I don't think we need a COMPLETE course in non-battery surveying.
And, we DO need a COMPLETE course in modern surveying. Ie, all the button pushing, and least squares, and such.
HOWEVER such a course is not complete, without a basic course in non-battery surveying.
Least squares, and basic error analysis, needs a foundation, to properly set up the parameters and expected tolerances.
Some of those old college programs were an excuse for an old guy, to use his old tools. That's not going to cut it for the modern world. Who wants to graduate college, without knowing how to proficiently operate a modern gps?
With a modern rtk system, we can, with proper procedure, tie any point +- a tenth.?ÿ
When I got into these modern tools, I was overwhelmed with information. I still am.
I'm fussing right now, with a section, that has a double set of monuments, N-S difference of around 70 to 100 feet. One corner is called the NE cor NW-NE. 95 feet south of it, is another corner, called the NW Cor. NE-NE. On the same plat. By the same surveyor. I could send you a copy.?ÿ
Modern tools, DUPLICATE the same job as the old ones, with higher speed, and better accuracy. (Or they are supposed to)
I also recently entangled myself with a survey, where there were 2 roads. My client alleges that road "A" is the correct one. Neighbor had it surveyed, and used location "B".
I mucked around with it, took testimony from old timers, and concluded "A" was probably fact. And that "B" was wrong. In my thoughts, the SURVEYOR who used "B" failed in research, and evidence gathering. The point being that modern tools cannot compensate for research failure, or evidence gathering failure.
A modern gps, robot, data analysis whatever, should not take the place of due diligence.
Thems just the tools. Same job must be done.
Nate
Nate,
"A modern gps, robot, data analysis whatever, should not take the place of due diligence."
Right on!
Knowing which buttons to push is NOT the same as knowing what they do, or When/?ÿWHERE to push them!
Loyal
Interesting,?ÿ I been busy for months, and when I pop back in, the first post I come across is this one.?ÿ A movie would be a great thing to have.?ÿ The course we put on last year in the Texas panhandle sending "crews" out using compasses, chains, and old field notes looking to recover "original" monuments seemed to be well received, and quite a point of discussion.?ÿ The young folks in the groups got a lot of informative stuff from the older folks who were enjoying getting to show the whys and hows of "old days" surveying.?ÿ One of the biggest discussions was a Party Chief showing his crew he knew they had a discrepancy in bearing because they hit the creek call too early, and by doing so, they should focus their search for the mound to the right of line.?ÿ We are offering the course again this year, and I guess attendance will let us know how much interest there really is.?ÿ I am hoping to find a drone operator to at least get us some photos and film of the class.
Which one, Monte? I'm planning to take the High Plains Experience seminar again this year and I can bring a video drone.
Using a 100' tape, chaining pins and plumb bobs was the first time I really understood statistics. Multiple teams measured the same line out, back and out again, each team figuring it's own mean and the probable error. Then a mean of the whole class was figured out , checked against the classes probable error.
Same concept was reading a transit angle, 3 D and 3 R and adding them on the plates. Figure your six angles from the partial readings, figure your total, figure your mean of 6 and calculate your probable error, then use the whole classes information. Made you realize that 16 observations was a good minimum for a geodetic survey.
Multiple measures, multiple angles and a compass rule adjustment got you very close to real least squares solution.?ÿ
I like a modified compass rule, starting by correcting 2/3 or 50-70%?ÿof the angle error. Let's assume 17" angle closure, 9 traverse points and 1 short leg. Add 1" to each angle, then 1" to each angle in and out of the short leg, for 11/17 (65%), then do the compass rule. In most cases you will be within 0.01' per leg?ÿ and 1" of a full least squares result.
I think any formal survey degree program should have a full semester of intro before before a theodolite, much less an EDM is touched. I would include a week of slide rule, but would allow a 4 banger computer then for using tables. Hand compass calculations to a degree and nearest foot. Tripod compass to 1/4 degree and nearest 0.5' or link. Transit to nearest minute (reading A & B) and 101' chaining tape with 0.1' markings at one end and then with interpolation, flat taping with bob and breaking tape. Transit with vernier, (reading sets and adding on plate) with 100.00' tape, slope taping with manual approximate corrections. Manual theodolite 20", 10" and lastly 5", D & R, precise tape with tension spring, correction based on zenith/vertical angle, calculating for temperature correction. Because all of this requires statistical analysis I would say a separate statistics course is overkill.?ÿ
All dreaming because we have at least 100 US surveying education programs and no significant group of them can get to together and agree on a "Survey Body of Knowledge."
Paul in PA
I think a little bit of basic logic would be helpful.
Like 100 years ago the Surveyor started from the stake (long gone decades ago) and chained to the corner then surveyed around the lot setting stakes or pipes. The property owners used the basic surveying instrument known as a ball of string and built the fences. Now 100 years later the old fences don??t perfectly match the descriptions especially since Mr. Modern Surveyor uses a POB tie from a City Mon set last year which is probably not where the original stake was. Maybe instead of calling everybody off we should apply some common sense.
You have 100 years of history, 100 years of people relying on the old survey lines in good faith.
here is a something to ponder
Colorado USED to have a 4 year survey degree program for 30 years. I was on the PLSC commiittee as well as an enrolled student for the last 10 years. The professor taught old school fundamentals, but would have several day long workshops on the new technology. A canyon sized divide developed between the "fundamentals" faction and the"teach them only new button technology" faction. I personally wanted to learn the fundamentals. I had been mentored, and mentoring is gone, I still belive that the methods of non electric surveying that built this country should be passed on and REQUIRED learning for anyone hired to retrace old surveys. But, our debates became so heated that some of the committed started speaking out against such boring classes using outdated tools no bless and whistles, so the University discontinued the program.?ÿ
I was in the last admitted full time?ÿon campus degree program the year they decided to cancel the program. Dr. Herb was a curmudgeon, a strict detailed perfectionist, and knew his stuff.I'm still wondering what they did with the fleet of immaculate T-2s and all the other gear when they moth-balled that place.
When they canceled the program, it put an end to my goal of getting the degree with which to propel me toward licensure, and remains a sore spot and point of curiosity for me about the future.?ÿ I definitely think any students that haven't had the pleasure of leveling a 4 post theodolite should be exposed to that.?ÿ Great way to drive an OCD person absolutely nuts......
Consequently, I saw a survey supply store that had a shiny new set of Chaining Pins for sale and I asked this younger guy if he knew what they were.?ÿ He had to go ask........
