Jitterboogie - I hear ya man. I had failed twice as a music major in my previous life. I had been licensed for 6 years, in the days when you were mentored on a daily basis BEFORE applying for the test - and I felt like I really never got the classroom fundamentals. Some of my favorite - and most hated classes - were some of the required math minor courses (having a math minor minus one elective is something I am profoundly glad to have with me today). In the larger scheme of society, a "Major" degree is but 2 years of focused classes - and two years of general studies. The goal is to become a well rounded individual that is prepared to start learning their craft AFTER graduation. However - we surveyors always have this debate in terms of only how to learn to go out and set pins today, nothing more.?ÿ
So, when I took classes as an experienced, licensed and working surveyor, I was quite GLAD to learn the hard fundamentals. I did NOT want to learn button pushing. We can take 1 or 2 day workshops everywhere from the dealers to learn how their brand works - and if you know the pencil fundamentals, learning the electronic buttons is oh so much easier. If you are a young person, electronics is nothing new - so why would they teach button pushing in college?
So on the debate went among the committee - "our instructor is NOT entertaining!" - "If we only had modern electronic instruments, surveyors would flock to this school to get survey degrees" (no where in America has that occurred in any other school). My opinion remains - teach the fundamentals - but I lost that debate. Eventually, the school found out that old instruments were being used - and we were canceled in short order.?ÿ
So, after 10 years of one class at a time, my third try at a degree came up short again, but this time, it it because the school canceled the program as a direct result of the complaints of my professional colleagues.?ÿ
No college would think of ?ÿgranting a BA in English and only require classes in 20th century literature.?ÿ
In this day and age - it is not too far fetched to conceive of a freshman class of surveyors, introduced to todays most modern technological tools, and then tell them when they graduate 5 years later: All that stuff we taught you five years ago is now obsolete, worthless junk. You can not get software for it, or find a dealer that will repair it. I hope what you actually learned in the past 5 years is the fundamentals of surveying, and an introduction to electronic instruments, so that you can easily adapt to all new technology now, and every 5 years from now on.?ÿ
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while we are on this sub-topic:?ÿ
During the time that MSUD had a 4 year degree program, and during the several years that this debate took place, Westwood College offered a fine Associates Degree in surveying, which was exactly what the technology people wanted. An 18 month program that gives you solid math, and hands on technology instruments so that a graduate could go straight to the field and run crews. This was a well respected program and perfectly tailored for those who were not interested in the general studies, cost, deep background fundamentals of a BS degree. To this day, I am totally baffled why the existence of this program did not divert the 4 year skeptics - why there was an argument at all to make the apples 4 year program into an orange associate degree program? What was the point - we lost both. our only hope is in the new program in Grand Junction.?ÿ
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After Dr. Stoughton retired, the Metro program ended up losing its ABET accreditation.?ÿ The Metro Extended Campus hired several affiliate faculty so that the distance learning courses could continue.?ÿ I was one of those and was responsible for three courses:?ÿ Route Surveying, Geodesy I, and Map Projections and Coordinate Systems (sophomore, junior and senior level courses respectively).?ÿ I was accepted to "oversee" those three courses because I was a PLS and held a graduate degree.?ÿ At the time, instructors and affiliate faculty at Metro had to have a minimum education of a graduate degree.?ÿ Mine was a Professional Degree in Hydrogeology (non-thesis MS).?ÿ Oddly, I never formally took any of the courses I "taught."?ÿ My duties included answering student questions, making corrections to the course materials, grading a book report, and grading the final exam.
While doing this I got a call from my supervisor that the survey department's storage locker was needed by the engineering department, so I went down to the old South Classroom with Bryan Clark and packed up most of the survey goodies.?ÿ I left field equipment for 5 or 6 lab teams in the cages in the storage unit.?ÿ The remainder of the surveying gear was in a metal shipping container outside the old Technology building.?ÿ I stored the majority of Metro's surveying equipment in my garage for several years.?ÿ Otherwise it would have been dumpsterized to make storage room for other departments.?ÿ It may be that eventually the items that I did not rescue were round filed in dumpsters.?ÿ Of the items in my garage several were loaned to Metro's surveying program by the BLM.?ÿ Since they were only on loan the BLM retrieved them and all their old T-2s T-1s, EDMs, tripods, etc. likely ended up in government surplus auctions.
Of the remaining equipment that was actually owned by Metro, I created a catalogue so that Metro could formally donate them to the PLSC.?ÿ The PLSC finally carted them off in 2015 and 2016 and placed them in a storage locker.?ÿ The last items to go in January 2016 when I moved were a pair of 3-meter Invar leveling rods in aluminum cases once owned by the NGS.?ÿ Todd Beers was kind enough to strap them onto a Merrick truck so they didn't end up being crushed and recycled for the aluminum.?ÿ There was a Wild N3 level, several Wild instruments and a Wild North Seeking Gyro and boxes and boxes of PK nails, plumb bobs, and supplies.?ÿ I don't know if any of the items were later given to the new program in Grand Junction.
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Sorry for the multiple posts.?ÿ I think I got the mess cleaned up on aisle three.?ÿ ?????ÿ
@nate-the-surveyor regarding the old ways and solar observations.?ÿ I have the field tablet to an old U.S. mineral surveyor that conducted a mineral survey in 1932.?ÿ I could not get the observations to "work."?ÿ I even wrote a Fortran program for reducing his solars to try and find out what he did.?ÿ It eventually dawned on me that he used a shortcut method.?ÿ He split the sun with the vertical cross hair and placed the horizontal cross hair on the bottom limb of the Sun.
I later read in James Underhill's 1906 book on "Mineral Land Surveying" why this was an acceptable method.?ÿ One could be a "few" minutes off in sighting the middle of the Sun with the vertical cross hair and not adversely impact the computed bearing.?ÿ Accurate sighting of the horizontal cross hair on the bottom limb was the sensitive sighting when reducing the observations with the altitude method.
Some the old ways aren't so obvious!
@Monte You guys should have someone film the class/fieldwork and post it on You Tube. I am sure it would get lots of hits and probably make a little money off of it...I'd watch it.?ÿ
N10,000, E7,000, Z100.00
PLS - IL, MO, AR, KS, MN, KY
It is more important to know how to deal with the data from those older methods than it is to know how to pull a tape or use a Bob.?ÿ
Driving stick should be an essential skill.?ÿ?ÿ
Well, ya can't have one, without the other.
And, as to the stick shift....
One of these days, when most are using electric cars, stick will be really archaic!
N
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It eventually dawned on me that he used a shortcut method.?ÿ
He split the sun with the vertical cross hair and placed the horizontal cross hair on the bottom limb of the Sun.
...reducing the observations with the altitude method.
Some the old ways aren't so obvious!
There was a whole cluster of Arkansas Surveyors, who used this method. They argued, and fussed, "it's not possible to get more than one minute accuracy from a sunshot, more like 1-1/2 minutes..."
Dr David Knowles, professor, had generated an ephemeris, for the hour angle method, and he was having a hard time selling them on its accuracy.
I was a fly on the wall to these fusses. Great times.
Nate
@charles-l-dowdell I found out the hard way a few years back that you can't roll-start most stick shifts now with a dead battery.?ÿ Electronic ignition, electronic fuel pumps and computers have made it so that if you don't have enough power to crank the engine you likely don't have enough to power the fuel pump and ignition.?ÿ
Jumper cables have become standard equipment on my vehicles and when I'm headed to remote places I load up a boost box.?ÿ
Which one, Monte? I'm planning to take the High Plains Experience seminar again this year and I can bring a video drone.
The one I am rally wanting drone film of is going th be the West Texas Retracement Seminar, Maxey Sheppard is the lead instructor.?ÿ I suspect Stan Piper and Micheal Newton wouldn't mind some aerial pics too.?ÿ Thanks
Something I have been thinking along for awhile now, as more and more licensed surveyors move to working in the office, and sending field crews out to collect their data, how are these licensed surveyors making sure that their crews use the skills the licensed surveyor knows and bringing back good data??ÿ It is not just the licensed surveyors who need to know the history, but the party chiefs, and even the lower crew members, to a degree.?ÿ Would we, as a profession, benefit from something akin to a Barber's College, that teaches useful surveying skills, to anyone interested??ÿ It could be a helpful stepping stone for a person wanting to get a job in the surveying field, or in starting their education to become a licensed surveyor.?ÿ I'm thinking skills like setting up instruments, figuring cut/fill, how to read deeds, how to draw sketches, why it is important to keep a rod level when sighting, basics of GPS, things like that maybe.
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Something I have been thinking along for awhile now, as more and more licensed surveyors move to working in the office, and sending field crews out to collect their data, how are these licensed surveyors making sure that their crews use the skills the licensed surveyor knows and bringing back good data??ÿ...
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Frankly, from what I'm seeing lately, in a lot of cases they aren't. But it hasn't really changed that much from my experience. I started in this business at the tail end of the '80s. Most of the PC's I worked with in the earliest days were kind of lost and wandering themselves. The LS's were not anxious to answer my questions and mostly avoided doing so. And within a year and a half, I was the PC. There were some moments along the way, to be sure. But there were never any "good old days".?ÿ?ÿ
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Nate,
After reading that I feel old, as I have done all it. Many of these were in college. They sure help one understand about the methods of surveying and relative?ÿaccuracy based upon procedures.
You failed to mention such task as:
- Setting batter boards
- Chiseling a box cut or xcut?ÿfor a BM (kids today randomly shoot any bonnet bolt or the top flange bolt of a hydrant)
- Three and four-person?ÿcrews, stake curves by deflection angles
- Writing field notes and hand?ÿsketches
- Shadow letter (or any form of neat handwriting)
- Lock Level
- Three wire levels
- Pegging a Level
- Natural Basksights
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Lee,
I've done const staking. In 1986. We had a t-2, 100' tape, I've been out of the const staking loop ever since. Now, (via magazine) we have dozer and graders, and track hoes with gps on their blades. I did not comment on that, as I'm out of that loop.
Wait'll electric cars are norm, and cool teenagers have big engine emulators, and concentric shakers, to be "cool".
Old Nate
... There were some moments along the way, to be sure. But there were never any "good old days".?ÿ?ÿ
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In my mind "good old days" are a collection of?ÿmemories?ÿwhich our minds have filtered and discarded anything unpleasant.?ÿ
A good example is the way I choose to remember my childhood.?ÿ Hopefully some of you all out there have enjoyed the stories I've shared here about my misspent youth.?ÿ I doubt my stories would be enjoyable to read had I chosen to relate things about an alcoholic and abusive father and all the dysfunction related to a turbulent part of my life.?ÿ Our mind's memory?ÿ"cherry picks" the good things and discards the bad.
The same is true?ÿwith my memories about surveying.?ÿ The memory of clearing line through saw briars with a cheap machete in the August heat for a buck and a?ÿquarter an hour?ÿdefinitely isn't worth cherishing.?ÿ Having to?ÿput?ÿyour own?ÿpoint on square-ended lumber yard lath, making another repair on a chain that should have been thrown away, splitting cloth flagging from fabric store remnants or trying to get a dip needle to be useful are all things I would like to forget.?ÿ But those are things we did back in "the good old days".?ÿ I hated it then and probably wouldn't do it now.?ÿ But I wouldn't trade my experiences for the world...maybe that's why our minds filter our memories and, like?ÿa fine wine, come up with something a lot more palatable.
Did I forget to mention using and carrying a plumb bob without a gammon reel??ÿ ?ÿ;)
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The bigger problem facing our profession in my opinion is the segmentation of the work.
I have gone years without seeing an LS or office tech in the field, I have never seen a field hand working in the office with a couple exceptions for guys who did both field and office. I have met drafters who could not draw up an easement and party chiefs who could not read a legal description.?ÿ?ÿ
When everyone is busy doing their own little thing they all do it worse and yet it is a winning model financially.?ÿ
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Did I forget to mention using and carrying a plumb bob without a gammon reel??ÿ ?ÿ;)
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The amount they get used nowadays a gammon reel will break or wear out before use, I have given up on using them although I still carry a plumb bob.
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The amount they get used nowadays a gammon reel will break or wear out before use, I have given up on using them although I still carry a plumb bob.
I carried my plumb bob on my hip?ÿuntil the County Sheriff started searching people to enter the courthouse. Most of them thought it was a knife.?ÿ Then for a while I merely left it in the truck.?ÿ The last straw was when they wouldn't allow me in the courthouse carrying the "holster" on my hip....(an educated deputy might have called it a scabbard, but they're 'weapon' oriented)...anyway, it stays in the truck nowadays.