Today just didn't end right. We were finishing up a retracement survey of approximately 120 acres when an adjoiner confronted us and ordered us to leave. We were 400' from being done mapping the access. The access is along a former county road that is the only access for four large tracts. He called the sheriff's department. We politely waited for the responding deputy. We were told that we could not go back down that road until we had "paperwork proving we have the right to". I called the sheriff himself and was told the same thing. We have no right of entry law, but the access is clearly active and has been there over 100 years. Do these keystone cops not learn the basics? In 30 years in this profession, I have NEVER been denied assistance by law enforcement. At least we got to visit the Indian Rock before being banned.
I've always told my guys that surveyors are basically "professional trespassers". 100% of the time (in the eyes of the law, AND anybody else that cares) we can be seen as trespassers.
I had the county mounties called on me once, and we were well over 300' onto my client's property. Didn't matter. We were pretty much told, "This man (neighbor) says your on his land...so you're on his land. Leave."
But that is the mentality that law enforcement understands - he that calls them and growls is right. It is a laugh.
I was told once we couldn't come back until the property owners got things "straightened out"...like WTF are we doing here if we're not 'straightening things out' !?
But remember..100% of the time the surveyor is the trespasser.:pinch:
Edit: Indian Rock reminds me of a similar place close to the house when I was a kid...except we called it "the peeing rock"...:clap:
I know how you feel. It just lets the wind out of your sail.
My comment is that maybe you could have your client video the old road bed, (he has been traveling that way for many years...) And, then add some deed lines to a Google Earth image, and take it to a judge, and have him order the survey. "To determine the legality of such road".
I dunno. Maybe easier to go an pee off of pee rock!
N
> Today just didn't end right.
Well, the end of the field day today found me looking over a right-of-way fence, trying to see whether I'd be able to triangulate to three distant peaks from a station there by the side of the racetrack that the State of Texas conveniently built and mislabeled as a highway. The station would be across the highway from a beer joint where around 6:00 PM at least a couple of patrons were offering to buy the surveyor a beer, apparently so he could tell them more about the history of the vicinity of the tavern from 1876 until 1950, when, judging by the looks of them, their mothers became of age.
I'm thinking that either (a) I'll need to occupy that station early in the day before the beer starts to flow or (b) shift the station a bit. Fortunately, no members of the constabulary were needed for that one.
I gather you don't have any legislation to support entry to land.
We have here and it is very rare for anyone to challenge us and with full knowledge of the Act we can confidently but respectfully go about our business.
I carry a copy of act with me but never had to use it.
If objected to we give 'reasonable' notice and then if still refused call in the Sheriff.
Doesn't stop disturbed people from getting guns out though.
Dogs don't understand though, which is sometimes a bit harrowing.
We just don't barge onto peoples property. I always ring or contact them well before if possible.
That rock looks interesting. Is that hole man made or carved out by water?
We have a Right of Entry Statute for Registrants conducting Boundary Surveys. I've always had my crews keep a copy in the glovebox with the explicit instructions that it would not protect them from bullets.
I found out several years ago that one of the many sovereign nations in our State does not recognize it.
Right Jim. There are some procedures we need to follow to gain that right of entry. Not sure of all them, but written notification is one of them. How many times do we do that?
I've never been shy about banging on a door a talking face to face, tell them what I am doing, and then the explanation tends to lengthen depending on the mood of the person. Always helps to let them know "I'm also surveying YOUR line in the process".
MI was different. The work vehicle had to have in bold letters on each side and the rear "Company name, address, and phone number". Who can afford that. I always just talked to the folks. Never had any issues there, nor here. Key is to talk to them.
It's the locked gates, loose stupid dogs, and druggies I don't like. I just get back in my truck and call the client.
> That rock looks interesting. Is that hole man made or carved out by water?
Looks to me like a where Indians used a pedestal to grind acorns. Some call it an acorn pit, but I'm sure there is a better name.
Acorns are not all that they would have ground up, they would have used it for all kinds of food and medicine.
It actuall says "...shall make every reasonable effort to give oral or written notice of the survey to the owner of the land..."
[sarcasm]Another clearly written, easily understandable rule![/sarcasm]
Ya Jim, I do not know the entirety of the "rules", but I do understand human nature. I always take the time to talk to folks before they come out in a rant and want to talk to me. If they tell you to leave, then I'll leave (remember AZ is an open carry, now a concealed carry state) No thanks, but I will be back - maybe even with Deputy Dawg.
In the bigger picture I don't really understand states who do not allow a land surveyor to do his job with due diligence to protect not only his client, but the public in general. It's a win win situation for all. Kind of up there with recording your surveys.
Can you digitize the road from aerial photography to show on your survey? Also, if the guy is denying you access, is he also denying access to the owners of the four parcel holders? Sounds like its going to take a law suit to solve this problem.
Also, if this is a former County Road, did they ever vacate it or deed the land to the guy denying you access? If not, get a letter from the county stating that it is a former county road that has never been closed and show that to the cops.
Why No Markings
> MI was different. The work vehicle had to have in bold letters on each side and the rear "Company name, address, and phone number". Who can afford that.
I don't want to hi-jack the thread but you have just hit on a real gripe of mine about many in our profession.
If you can afford to be in the survey game then you can afford to identify your company on the side of your truck. The address and sign on the back may be a little over kill but we should all mark our rigs. We want to call ourselves professionals but then show up looking like some fly by night outfit. It is free advertising for god's sake. If your not proud enough to identify yourself then you should not be doing the work. And if it is not identified as as a company vehicle then you should not be writing it off.
Rant over.
Why No Markings
Maybe in OR, but you don't want to advertise the location of 50k+ worth of equipment in some areas of downtown Chicago.
How close can you get to it? Can you shoot what you need prismless?
I live in a state that has right of entry and the statue is pretty open ended, it doesn't say anything about giving notice. I have had law enforcement back me up on a couple of occasions, they seem to have always taken my side but I have had to explain the law to them.
Also, if this is a former County Road, did they ever vacate it or deed the land to the guy denying you access? If not, get a letter from the county stating that it is a former county road that has never been closed and show that to the cops.
I was surprised to learn that in Utah the county is not required to keep public roads open if they choose not to. The road may well be a statutory public road but the county isn't required to enforce it (it remains a public easement until vacated no matter how long it is gated off). So in this case the person who wants to use the road would need to go to the courts to get the "paperwork" required to use the road. Weird I know, but if the county sheriff or who ever doesn't want to help you out you are out of luck. We have a lot of "county roads" that have been gated off and such and the county does nothing. I've whined about it but now know I can't make the county do what they don't want to do.
The best approach is to try to get permission BEFORE you get caught out there.
Why No Markings
I have heard that in South Florida it is not a good idea to advertise on your vehicles that you are a surveyor. Its an open invitation to get robbed. I had an equipment dealer who didn't advertise on their vehicles for the same reason.
If it has open sky, have your client, or the ups truck, or some random person, mount the GPS on their car, and set it to store every 10' and look at the Sat Configuration, and have them drive it.
Yeah.
N
Why No Markings
Hey John, the rant is understood and appreciated. I still do carry magnetized signs which some sites/contractors require I place. I had a contractor years ago that made me put their sign on, so the general would think I worked direct for them. Never a problem. At one time I had the big bold letters on the side windows, and my magnet sign on my tailgate. I took the letters off after a couple stops after work at a local pub, but still keep the magnets.
Problem is, I've pretty much worked from home once I was self employed. I don't really care what the neighbors do for a living, and I don't want them knowing what I do for a living. I've never had a garage to park in either. You do not have to be a rocket scientist to know I've got $50K plus worth of stuff in my closet, and likely about $2000 worth of stuff that lives in my truck full time. Not to mention computers and office stuff I hate.
But you're point is well stated, just remember that some of us are not "big guys" in the profession. I do not want to advertise except by personal contact and referrals. After all, I am the company and my tools are needed to help me achieve things. When I push daisies, I'll leave footsteps and smiles and my kids can have all my "stuff" 😉
Why No Markings
I agree with you for the most part.
I have nice magnetic signs on the side of my trucks. When I am sub contracting for some of my clients, I take them off, just depends in the job.
When Chris and I work together, if he is working on one of my jobs, he takes his signs off the truck, and vice versa.
I will also take them off in some neighborhoods to not advertise the contents of the vehicles as others have mentioned.
> I was surprised to learn that in Utah the county is not required to keep public roads open if they choose not to. The road may well be a statutory public road but the county isn't required to enforce it (it remains a public easement until vacated no matter how long it is gated off). So in this case the person who wants to use the road would need to go to the courts to get the "paperwork" required to use the road.
One of my favorite modern quotes...
"A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and substantial reason' why he should be permitted to exercise his rights, the rights existence is all the reason he needs." U.S. District Judge Benson Everett Legg - 2012
What do you want to bet you will be required to provide "good and substantial reason" why you need to travel through that gate and along that public highway?
In my experience the County may or may not be willing to assist you in exercising your rights. An example is an old dedicated public highway in my county that slowly got less and less use until all that remained was faint wagon tracks. A local rancher did use the trail once a year to drive cattle.
Although the county knew it was a dedicated public highway that had not been abandonded, they pursued getting a formal easement for the purposes of moving cattle (something which I would have thought would have been absolutely included in the rights of the public when it was dedicated).
Even though the rights exist on paper, they deteriorate when they are not openly exercised.
