ALTA with cardinal /plat dimensions

I say I am glad that aint my problem, cause if it was, I would be saying lots of words you can't say on regular TV.

Board complaint, negligence/incompetence. Maybe fraud.

Whoa!

What's your role with this presentation? Are you guys construction staking the new project? I get the impression you are going to be staking this project and they are providing you with the information.

If so, then I would check everything on the ground outside that plat (streets, buildings, which ironically enough are more reliable than some surveyors monuments) and see what you can come up with on your own. If the building is "encroaching" a tenth of a foot, I would say he is probably out a tenth of a foot, if the corners of the buildings are the corners like most downtowns. But it is hard to say...don't know about those even lot dimensions...it is fishy for sure.

We follow a lot of topos and you would be shocked at some of the things I have seen. Hell one we followed for a local school showed a property line, that the surveyor never actually tied to or measured. They looked at me like I was insane when I sent them the bill for actually measuring the boundary lines that should have been in the first place. The detention pond was encroaching by a cool 15 feet too, but I had the audacity to charge the full amount.

c'est la vie

I would call the surveyor who prepared the survey and ask them if the boundary information was turned off when they printed the plat. Is Item 1 of Table A listed on the certification?

Wow! And surveyors complain about the GIS profession. At least the GIS product comes (or should come) with a disclaimer of accuracy. Jp

Mark Mayer, post: 448787, member: 424 wrote: I've just been presented with an ALTA survey of a downtown Portland block showing cardinal bearings and exact plat distances for the lot dimensions and no found or set monuments at all. The "City of Portland" plat, which covers this area, was run out in the 1850s, there is no record of survey recorded of this particular property in the county surveyors records, no corner of the property is monumented today, and the ALTA shows a 3 story brick apartment building to the south encroaching a tenth of a foot.

The property sold for $2.5m and they have probably spent as much as that again on design and permitting of a 6 story apartment building which is to break ground next week.

What say you?

Sounds very similar to one I looked at a few weeks ago. We are staking some water, sewer and street improvements on a City street adjacent to a ?ñ$25M student housing project.Our project is for the City, no connection with the housing project. The City inspector asks the contractor we are working for to verify that a short piece of sidewalk they are constructing is actually in the city street. I find a recently recorded "Results of Survey" of the adjoining housing project. There were no new corners set, just a note that they will be set (not permitted by our Board), a number of found monuments with notes stating the monument description and "Found and Used" but with no bearings or distances to them, notes stating that all the surrounding streets are "varying width easements" but no widths shown, no bearings on sidelines, no citation to documents creating streets. etc. Most of the bearings and distances shown are record. It's one of the most abysmal drawings I have ever seen. I cannot believe that ANYONE would construct a project of any size based on such a lousy survey. Its going to be very interesting to see how this one sorts out...

I have not done an ALTA in a long time, but it does not appear that showing monuments is optional. Also, how can you meet the measurement standards without showing you measurements?

That sounds like something a non surveyor would do.
It is the same as drawing everything from what is on record without having boots on the ground and doing an actual survey.

I smell a rat! And by that I mean a "survey mill" doesn't say Ex_cta on it anywhere does it?

Without pulling it up, I think ALTAs require that you show monuments that control the position of the boundary. I'm personally not a fan of calling the board to tattle on local surveyors, the economy will eventually sift these folks out of business. But if it's a nationwide ALTA survey co. then file a complaint, they shouldn't exist.

roger_LS, post: 448859, member: 11550 wrote: I'm personally not a fan of calling the board to tattle on local surveyors, the economy will eventually sift these folks out of business.

Unfortunately, that's not the case in my area. There are local ALTA mills that operate regionally, and they're every bit as bad as the national boys when it comes to substandard work. They've been doing this for over 20 years, so the "eventually" thing isn't working hereabouts.

I followed an ALTA a few years back where the corners were not set. It is item 1 of Table A, but you are also required to adhere to State standards.
I contacted the other Surveyor and we butted heads for the two 20 day periods before I was going to report him. To his credit he made it right and changed his practice. I actually offered him a job not too long ago.
Sometimes you have to flush tyrds, other times you make progress...

Almost as bad as the Benson Syndicate rearing its ugly head again... over a century later.

Jim Frame, post: 448861, member: 10 wrote: Unfortunately, that's not the case in my area. There are local ALTA mills that operate regionally, and they're every bit as bad as the national boys when it comes to substandard work. They've been doing this for over 20 years, so the "eventually" thing isn't working hereabouts.

If that's the case, I take it back. That's upsetting to hear. If they were continuously doing blatantly crap work all the time and also intentionally undercutting the market I may be tempted to call the board on a local company.

at least you don't have any pincushions -

seriously, sounds like you are starting from scratch and there is no way to follow the ALTA -

warren ward PLS CO OK, post: 448888, member: 12536 wrote: ...there is no way to follow the ALTA....

That's not the part that really bugs me. What bothers me is that millions of dollars were spent before even breaking ground and the potential existed that the proposed works would not fit on the property. I should say that while there are no monuments on the property corners, and only one on the whole block, there are plenty enough in the adjacent blocks to reconstruct the boundary. As it turns out the dimensions as surveyed are close enough to the ideal that the whole thing will come out in the wash. BUT THEY HAD NO WAY TO KNOW THAT! If I had to tell them they needed a redesign at his point it would look bad for the design surveyor, for me, and for the whole profession.

My modus operandi on jobs of this sort is use the control & record boundary used by the design team unless I find a reason not to. If I'm following you give me a good effort and I'll do what I can to back you up. Leave me a turd like this and I'll throw you to the wolves.

Mark, you are stirring me emotions!
Well said.
N

thebionicman, post: 448864, member: 8136 wrote: I followed an ALTA a few years back where the corners were not set. It is item 1 of Table A, but you are also required to adhere to State standards.
I contacted the other Surveyor and we butted heads for the two 20 day periods before I was going to report him. To his credit he made it right and changed his practice. I actually offered him a job not too long ago.
Sometimes you have to flush tyrds, other times you make progress...

Right, setting monuments is optional unless your state requires them, but showing your control is mandatory.