Recently performed survey for a boundary adjustment on two large tracts. The client owns one large tract and was wanting to purchase part of the adjacent owner’s large tract. The deed of the adjacent owner is very vague, however, the perimeter of the adjacent owner was bounded by other survey maps, highway layouts and descriptive deeds.
The survey took about a year, and tied all the surveys, highway layouts, and evidence, such as stone walls, and monuments, some dating back to 1874. Taking this into consideration, along with reading many deeds the boundary is conclusive and the survey map for the boundary adjustment was recorded.
Before the conveyance, the client hired an attorney for a title search. Finding the description of the adjacent parcel to be vague, the attorney wrote for an explanation of how the boundary was determined.
The attorney later suggested that the title insurance company wants an ALTA / NSPS survey be performed to clear up the differences between the deed of the adjacent owner and what was presented on the survey map.
Both tracts are vacant land other than forest. There are no industries, utilities or easements. Why an ALTA /NSPS survey would be of any benefit is beyond my comprehension, however, I am unfamiliar with the process. It seems to be an unnecessary expense, and a means to extort money from the client.
A clear display of ignorance on the part of the attorney.
Thank you. I thought I was missing something.
It sounds like the guy is simply wanting a narrative or some sort of report describing your rhyme and reason which, if that's the case, doesn't sound too crazy to me. I might simply email him and ask if I can prepare a Word document describing what I did instead of essentially pasting the same thing on a copy of a survey that's already been recorded.
Thank you. I spoke with the attorney on the telephone and told him the story. About a month later I got the request for the ALTA. Perhaps they have never seen a vague deed before this.
A bare land ALTA is usually fairly easy to do. At least not much harder than a comprehensive boundary survey.
Okay, I will have a look, but the survey is very thorough, and I would rather write a report of my determination for the attorney, and the title insurance company.
"Why an ALTA /NSPS survey would be of any benefit is beyond my comprehension"
An ALTA is effectively an insurance policy -- the surveyor is certifying that his work has met clear and well-vetted requirements, and has presented it in a manner familiar to the title and banking industries. A generic boundary survey map doesn't offer those same assurances, at least not in a nationally-standardized format.
Around here we rarely see ALTAs on residential property, but they're SOP for commercial properties.
This is just another way for the Attorney to gouge the client. The Attorney has as much right to question your conclusions as you have to question his/her litigation approaches. The writing is on the wall, when you issue that ALTA survey, either he/her will question is to death just for billings. They will nit pick your notes, wanting you to use their wording that increases your liability and they will want to be included in the certification.
I've seen this a million times. In one instance, my CEO was in my office discussing other issues when I took a call from a paralegal representing the lender, less than 24 hours before a multimillion dollar closing, directly effecting his brother in law, was scheduled. My CEO sat beside me and listened, knowing that the deal was potentially at risk when I refused to change my wording. The Paralegal started yelling and screaming me with is demands, I warned him twice to stop before I hung up the phone. I was in fear of my job with the CEO seeing and hearing my calm response, but he stood up, laughed, high fived me and said "good job, that's why you are the Professional here".
The moral of my long winded story is that your opinions are what they are, your conclusions are what they are and based on your Professional experience. Don't let an Attorney or his staff try to force your hand.
I cannot think of one ALTA survey that I have done, over the 30 years of being licensed, being for anything other than commercial transactions.
No matter how vague the deed description may appear, if you can put the boundary on the ground in a unique manner, then it is a good description.
Not a licensed person here. But I received a call from a relative that lives out of state. Trying to get parent’s property in order no big deal. I took good notes gathered the info pulled online research gave it to my LS. Right before the person got off the phone BAM. I need it to be ALTA. This is residential land. So are we beginning to see a possible trend maybe. I have had a few realtors on 10 plus acres lots requesting ALTA surveys for residential properties lately. I know this is not the norm but why.
Thank you to everyone who read this post, and especially to everyone who responded.
The funny thing about the attorney's reasoning "an ALTA / NSPS survey be performed to clear up the differences between
the deed of the adjacent owner and what was presented on the survey map" is not really the purpose of an ALTA/NSPS survey. The boundary you show on the ALTA plan is not going to be any different than the boundary you've already shown. As someone noted earlier, an ALTA plan extends your liability as an agent of the insurance company. Charge accordingly.
I can think of one survey I did on residential property that became an ALTA/NSPS survey plan. The property was being developed for a large condominium project by the future unit owners. A co-housing, eco-housing little piece of paradise. They wanted the assurance of including removing the survey exception from their title insurance policy. Smart move, in that case.
I've related some requests for out of the box ALTA surveys on RPLS. For my area it seems to come from title people in far off locations. Basically, they want ALTAs for ranch properties. Often it comes from potential buyers interested in the property. I always try and talk them down to something more appropriate than an ALTA. And buyers I don't know are a huge red flag.
We have more sophisticated clients as buyers and will do an in-depth title study of a potential purchase. Those aren't ALTA surveys. But often it's a more useful process for the client. An ALTA survey is the title industry passing off liability from them to the surveyor (which is why some will demand last minute statements), so it's very important to look at each property from that perspective when one is done. Limit what you're agreeing to do.
Maybe it's different elsewhere but ALTA's usually don't even get to the real issues my clients need answered. They might skirt around it, but has anyone ever done an ALTA and addressed water rights, mineral rights, probably some have looked at environmental issues such as dumps, erosion control ect.
Boundary issues on large properties are important, but will pale compared to where the irrigation water is coming from.
What's the zoning/future use of the property and the nature of the purchaser's business? There is one purpose for an ALTA/NSPS Title Survey - to remove the survey exception from the title insurance policy.
We didn't get the job but at my previous firm we put together a proposal for ALTA surveys on about 75 vacant wooded parcels in the Florida panhandle. There are reserves of some rare type of clay that is used in pharmaceutical manufacturing on the properties and they were being purchased by a mining company. I've also performed ALTA surveys on unimproved properties for the transfer of raw land between forest product companies and for various states and federal agencies when purchasing raw land for future development or preservation.
Thank you for that thought. It's a conservation restriction. No future development.
I've gone to war against title companies over ALTAs and it never accomplished anything and certainly didn't help my client. I've been in, and I'm about to be in again, your situation and I just write my client a letter explaining what's going on and provide them the means to ask the title company pertinent questions regarding the necessity of another major expense. The meat of it is: The title company already has my boundary and therefore all the information that is pertinent to this transaction. They have not identified any easements or boundary issues that are not currently displayed on the map. I stand by my work but by certifying directly to the lender and title company I am providing them with what they really seem to want, an increased ability to collect from my insurer in the unlikely event that there's a claim against title. My price for this increased lability to me plus the time addressing and readdressing comments is $XX,XXX.
Clients who deal with a lot of commercial real estate transactions know the game or can easily understand it when you point it out to them. A PLS could price an ALTA for these folks at 80% of a resurvey or more if time is of the essence.
An ALTA for a conservation restriction (easement?) is a new one to me. I've done a bunch of them but never in ALTA form.
This, copied and pasted from the ALTA Standards, may apply to some of the issues raised about an ALTA not covering the issues typically shown on a local survey:
Other Requirements and Standards of Practice - Many states and some local jurisdictions have adopted statutes, administrative rules, and/or ordinances that set out standards regulating the practice of surveying within their jurisdictions. In addition to the standards set forth herein, surveyors must also conduct their surveys in accordance with applicable jurisdictional survey requirements and standards of practice. Where conflicts between the standards set forth herein and any such jurisdictional requirements and standards of practice occur, the more stringent must apply.
Ken
