YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!
At last, another heathen comes forward.
wait a darn minnit....
> Other areas I work in the land may be worth more than $1,000,000 an acre. I have been thinking of taking this same approach when staking boundary corners to eliminate that last little bit of error on the expensive projects.
Respectfully Mr. Bill,
There's procedure to set precise points atop monuments if the survey requires that sort of precision. And I agree that land values may need to be taken into account when placing corner monumentation.
What I can't quite get my head around is someone attempting to remove the last little bit of slop when pounding two-bit rebar in hard ground. We all try. I've always gotten less than acceptable results by trying. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I would think that monumenting million-buck-an-acre property MIGHT require completely different procedures than pinnin' lots at the local baby-farm sub-division.
Oklahoma's minimum standards address the value of the property as a factor in the precision required. And the old proverbial "0.04" really does fall within acceptable parameters. My experience is that I can trim a lot more slop out of my work in the procedures leading up to the placement of the rebar rather than worrying about it while I'm on my knees pounding with a 3 lb. peened shop hammer.
my $0.02 😉
given that rationale
Now that is said like a real surveyor~!
wait a darn minnit....
> What I can't quite get my head around is someone attempting to remove the last little bit of slop when pounding two-bit rebar in hard ground. We all try. I've always gotten less than acceptable results by trying. ...
I think that we have to accept that a set monument is not exactly where the math says it is and embrace that fact. Apply the virtual hammer to achieve that last couple of hundreths.
> 3/4" black pipe works best for 5/8" rebar. I'm not sure if one could bend the top 4"~6" of 3/4" rebar, which would work with the 1" pipe. Another good thing to do is to purchase it as a nipple (threads on both ends) and then also purchase a union and split the union to protect the threads and make the entry both a little flared out and much stronger.
Not so sure I agree with the "bending" of the top. In 15 yrs another surveyor like me will see that it is bent and thus disturbed, so I would dig down until I found where it was plumb and use that (I hate doing that). But I would still interpret as disturbed.
I also think that getting bothered by 0.02' in any rebar set is a bit unrealistic. Come back in 5 yrs and it may have moved on its own, ie, frost, rain, critters, motorized fun toys, or just a guy next door who don't know 0.02' from 10 ft. We ain't perfect, and we do the best with the tools we have, which includes our judgement.
Maybe the realistic solution is to learn to hit it straight in the first place (yes, that's a real challenge at times). If it isn't, then beat the ground next to it to adjust it. But don''t bend it. I've never seen a note on a plat stating something like "drove 18" 5/8" rod but hit a rock 2/3 down, so I bent the top to adjust it"
$0.02
wait a darn minnit....
but, but, but, then I can't show that the monument is "off" the corner by, .02N and .03E;-)
wait a darn minnit....
All I'm saying is, if I can keep an additional .02' error from the product with MINIMAL effort why wouldn't I want to do it?
Building a watch? No
Trying to do the best I can? Yes
All I'm saying is that every little bit counts. Maybe ALL the pins won't move on a project, and some other SURVEYOR 20 years from now is thankful that I set the corners as best I could?
I've retraced some other peoples work, and there's two tenths of slop everywhere - there's just no reason for that these days...
I've also retraced other peoples work and everything works almost as if it was from my own files.
I also realize that the monument becomes the corner, not the coordinate, which is another reason to try to set them accurately.
Like everything - yes, no & maybe
We're discussing how corners move around and we have to learn how to deal with it. But just because a hunk of rebar gets moved around doesn't mean the location of the corner moves.
I will grant you that in some circumstances such as a section corner in a rural area it doesn't mean much. But in a string of town house lots that are 22' wide it can make a difference. Such broad statements that the corner is where a hunk of rebar is found without detailed investigation is reckless.
wait a darn minnit....
"...and there's two tenths of slop everywhere -..."
If I find ANYTHING within two-tenths of where I might happen to think it should be I am jumping up and down with joy! I have found a monumented corner!!
wait a darn minnit....
Dang Jim, your old timers were pretty good too. Even to some of the new timers that's good. Like you, I've got zero problem holding something that I "think" may be a couple/few tenths off where I'd have set it if I'd hadn't found it. I think it's called "Record & Measured".
But with all that newfangled RTN stuff youze guyz have, can't you practically neuter a gnat with that precision it provides.... 😉
I just wasn't real fond of the rod-bender club towards the top, still ain't.
> You should look into Morasse brand caps available from Berntsen. UV (at an altitude of 7000') hasn't touched the first ones I set 29 years ago, and if you install them correctly a hammer never touches them.
I use these now too.
wait a darn minnit....
You are fooling yourself if you don't think that rebar with the aluminum cap is not going to move. So your efforts with a punch mark will still not be where you report it. If you were really interested in minimizing movement, you'd hammer 9'-10' or to bedrock. Moreover, as Jim said laughed about in his post, that aluminum disk will have many punch marks by others soon enough. That's why I don't like post-punched marks. Too many idiots who will punch another point, or deface it somehow with the end of their prism pole, which perplexes me too.
Like everything - yes, no & maybe
Try explaining that to a lady that thinks it should only cost $300 to survey their lot and set their corners when she already 'knows' where her corners are. Had one of those Ring-Rings just this morning. The lady became indignant when I quoted her $1500. 1952 subdivision where 'scribed spruce' were set as the original corners. Ended up telling the lady if she knew where her corners were, why was she calling me? :-/
I don't do reckless. Call someone that doesn't value their license lady.
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
wait a darn minnit....
:good:
The real world. Nothing is black and white, just various shades of gray.
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
Like everything - yes, no & maybe
Well, I'd hope you'd set something other than a two-bit rebar for a project like that. But even then, your set monument becomes the corner. Unless you want to set something new 0.02' away.
wait a darn minnit....
Hey man, don't let us discourage you at all, nothing wrong with trying your best to get it as close to perfect as you can, wish everybody did. That's why the GPS sits in the truck when I'm laying out a subdivision.
wait a darn minnit....
Me too, on some projects...
given that rationale
Ha ha, Love this:-D
So why is John Q Public confused about what we do, when we agree so well among ourselves?
"Substantial" Monumentation
There's some talk here about punch marks and monument "wobble" and the like. Others will always disagree and want to put their "own" punch on other's caps. ALWAYS.
Here's a substantial monument at the "armpit" of the Oklahoma Panhandle where it borders Texas to the south and west. You will note that it bears a bronze cap in the center of a portland cement concrete monolith.
You will also note in this detail that someone apparently disagreed and set their own 16d nail...and it barely made it on the mass:
Makes me wonder if Kent was the culprit. 😉