I've run into problems with 811 here in CA a couple of times. Like has been mentioned, most of the time they won't go out and mark unless I give them a "dig" date. And when I've tried to explain that we have to design first before we can dig, they will say, "well, we can't mark the utilities more than 48 hours in advance of the dig".
Sometimes I'll be able to get as-build drawings from the utility providers. But I've had some companies say that they will either give me as-builts or mark the ground, but not both. A few of the local agencies will gladly provide their as-built drawings for the municipal utilities. But most of them it is a hassle to get them requested and sent out to me. I like to have those as-builts in hand when my crew goes out to the field so they know what they are looking for. This helps for finding obscured manholes and such. But sometimes it takes the agency over a week to even respond to my request. I don't have a week of lead time from the NTP to start my survey, typically.
But, I will probably just try to get our project managers to consult with me on the Table A items before they go writing the proposal.
skwyd, post: 354891, member: 6874 wrote: sometimes it takes the agency over a week to even respond to my request
You're doing a lot better than I am, in that case. I've had some utilities take 3 months to respond.
Jim Frame, post: 354901, member: 10 wrote: You're doing a lot better than I am, in that case. I've had some utilities take 3 months to respond.
That's the result of sanctioned monopolies.
Licensed Land Surveyor
Finger Lakes Region, Upstate New York
All Table A items are clearly negotiable. 2011 Table A item 11b clearly required the same negotiation since it did not even indicate who was responsible for ordering plans or making the one-call. Presumably surveyors discussed that issue with their clients. There is nothing different here; if you don't like the wording of something, then we encourage you to negotiate it.
Regarding the concern over a Table A item being negotiated and then a subsequent user not knowing of the qualification, the 2016 Standards require an explanation for any modification of a Table A item.
Good luck getting your hands on utility plans post-9/11 (especially water)
No one is under any illusions about this. If we are hired by a client to perform a topo for engineering design, they want and need utilities also, so the fact that we are talking here about Land Title Surveys changes nothing - we are still faced with the exact same issues. And, depending on where you are, you may have trouble getting any plans. Write it into the contract, or otherwise qualify what you will do with this item.
Jim Frame, post: 354901, member: 10 wrote: You're doing a lot better than I am, in that case. I've had some utilities take 3 months to respond.
Well, it looks like you aren't that far from me to the north. But I have had more "bureaucracy" in dealing with the cities and counties a bit north of me than I do with the counties south of me. Especially Sacramento County. Perhaps it is the proximity to the State Capitol that adds that layer of "management" to get through. B-)
Then again, the counties south of me often don't have much better to do.
As far as the new Table A item 11, it looks line the old Table A 11a is now included in the standard 2016 ALTA/NSPS specifications. The 2016 Table A item 11 is just the old Table A itmem 11b with a little more detail on whom will request the information.
Getting markings from an 811 service is a completely different beast. As been pointed out, 811 in California gets really pissy when you try to call a locate in for pre-design. I have been threatened by the locators to many times to mention for calling them in as non pre-design. For years now I have informed my clients that I will not call in a pre-design ticket in CA. They do have a number for pre-design but I think you end up paying for it. Here in Oregon they have 10 days for pre-design, 2 days in Washington. I have recently been using a private locate company but they tell me they are not supposed to locate anything in the right-of-way in Oregon. The real painful part in the NW is that you have to mark the area in white prior to calling in the locate. Not so bad if the job is right down the street but even across town is a pain in Seattle or Portland.
And as for maps. Good luck, I normally get gas around here and can sometimes look up sewer and water on-line at the local jurisdictions.
For me, Table A item 11 is going to add at least a half day for utility research. If the client does not like it they can remove the item or find another surveyor.
Adam, post: 354751, member: 8900 wrote: Hgman, does your locator cover the foothills area?
We've had him mark statewide for us. He works out of the area between Greensboro and Burlington, and bills portal to portal, so we have to figure in his travel time for sites which are further out. The company is Superior Locate and it's a solo operation. Rob Parsons is the principal and we've worked with him for at least 15 years now.
Shawn Billings, post: 354744, member: 6521 wrote: Wow. That seems like an excellent approach. Does the private locator have access to utility plans, or does he just flag what is visibly evident on site (like locating a telephone cable if he sees a pedestal to locate from)?
From what I gather, he has utility atlases for the major metro areas he works in. Other than that, he relies on observed, visible evidence of utilites to marks lines. His services have been particularly valuable in performing topos of large commercial or industrial properties with lots of service lines. 811 typically won't trace the service lines onto private property, but he'll track down anything he can find. In these instances, he will frequently consult with the facilities manager - a lot of the time they have schematics or as-builts of subsurface utilities.
hgman, post: 355017, member: 8980 wrote: We've had him mark statewide for us. He works out of the area between Greensboro and Burlington, and bills portal to portal, so we have to figure in his travel time for sites which are further out. The company is Superior Locate and it's a solo operation. Rob Parsons is the principal and we've worked with him for at least 15 years now.
The job I mentioned earlier was in Graham, I could of have put him to work on that one. Thanks I will keep him in mind. Does he locate all the utilites or just specific types?
Adam, post: 355021, member: 8900 wrote: The job I mentioned earlier was in Graham, I could of have put him to work on that one. Thanks I will keep him in mind. Does he locate all the utilites or just specific types?
We have him mark everything except storm an sanitary. He doesn't have GPR, so there are some types of waterlines (esp. PVC) which he can't mark if they don't have trace wires. He's also been able to snake a tape down sanitary cleanout lines and storm to mark these for us in those rare instances where we needed him to.
Gary Kent, post: 354963, member: 11085 wrote: No one is under any illusions about this. If we are hired by a client to perform a topo for engineering design, they want and need utilities also, so the fact that we are talking here about Land Title Surveys changes nothing - we are still faced with the exact same issues. And, depending on where you are, you may have trouble getting any plans. Write it into the contract, or otherwise qualify what you will do with this item.
As Gary is saying, the utilities have always been an issue. We should clearly spell out what our responsibility will be concerning utilities in our contract, whether it is an ALTA Survey or something else. A clear scope in our contract is our best defense against liability. Be clear and follow the terms of your agreement. The ALTA standards appear to be written to allow us the flexibility to address the specific situation.
Also when hiring a utility locator, you need to consider a few basics.
- Are they a professional organization?
- Are you assuming liability for their work?
- Do they have Professional Liability Insurance?
- Would they be in a position to help defend a lawsuit?
- Do they have any certification?
I know of more lawsuits pertaining to utility issue than property location.
lmbrls, post: 355116, member: 6823 wrote: As Gary is saying, the utilities have always been an issue. We should clearly spell out what our responsibility will be concerning utilities in our contract, whether it is an ALTA Survey or something else. A clear scope in our contract is our best defense against liability. Be clear and follow the terms of your agreement. The ALTA standards appear to be written to allow us the flexibility to address the specific situation.
Also when hiring a utility locator, you need to consider a few basics.
- Are they a professional organization?
- Are you assuming liability for their work?
- Do they have Professional Liability Insurance?
- Would they be in a position to help defend a lawsuit?
- Do they have any certification?
I know of more lawsuits pertaining to utility issue than property location.
I wouldn't think that Professional Liability Insurance would be available for this. Is it a Professional service?
Jim in AZ, post: 355119, member: 249 wrote: Is it a Professional service?
Contract 'locators' who provide one-call level service - no
Subsurface Utility Engineers - Yes
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/programadmin/sueindex.cfm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsurface_utility_engineering
James Fleming, post: 354826, member: 136 wrote: Here's what I've done for the last fifteen years on any survey where I show utilities:
- Have your admin staff (or a crew chief on a rain day) call all the utilities companies in the area where you work and get a contact in the engineering department to request plans from. Some will make you go through a background check first.
- Make a master list of contacts per county/municipality
- Write a standard information request form letter.
- Send said form letter out the day you get NTP for a survey.
- Prepare a standard utility note in your drawing template that has all the contact info...then when the survey goes out the door just note what the response was (if any - note that too) and what information you used on the drawing.
Takes a day or so of busywork on the front end and then maybe an hour per survey. Where I work most firms do this so it's pretty much just part of the local standard of care.
When I was doing ALTAs, I used a note with very close to the exact same wording. Don't recall when I first came across it or who I got it from, but it seems to cover the bases well.
I had contacts in the engineering or mapping departments of all the local utility companies. Most were happy to supply drawings of what they had in the area. Some would refuse to provide copies but would allow me to come in and view their maps and sketch the utility locations onto a prelim copy of my drawing. One or two would tell me to send them a copy of my survey and they would sketch the utility locations in and send the drawing back.
I really appreciated the cooperation of those in the first group, thought those in the 2nd group were being a bit paranoid but could work with that, but simply told any in the 3rd group "no thanks" and placed a note on my drawing that they refused to provide field locations or maps.
When someone who is not under my direction says that they will place features into my drawing but not allow me to review to ensure that those features were placed on the drawing as accurately as the source information allowed, that's the point at which I figure that it is no longer my drawing alone and I would be lying by signing any statement or certificate, or placing my stamp upon a drawing which expressly states or implies that the drawing and the survey were made by me or under my direction, that I would be lying.
eapls2708, post: 355212, member: 589 wrote: When someone who is not under my direction says that they will place features into my drawing but not allow me to review to ensure that those features were placed on the drawing as accurately as the source information allowed, that's the point at which I figure that it is no longer my drawing alone and I would be lying by signing any statement or certificate
I'll use data plotted by others, but my standard note refers to the CI/ASCE 38-02 standard and includes a disclaimer:
UTILITY INFORMATION SHOWN WAS DEVELOPED IN ACCORDANCE WITH CI/ASCE 38-02 QUALITY LEVEL C USING OBSERVED SUR-
FACE INDICATIONS, [agency names] GIS DATA, AND RECORD DRAWINGS. USERS OF THIS MAP ARE CAUTIONED TO VERIFY THE LOCATIONS
OF ANY UTILITY FACILITIES PRIOR TO MAKING CRITICAL DESIGN DECISIONS OR COMMENCING CONSTRUCTION ACTIVITIES.
I don't think that note covers it Jim. If I didn't develop the info on my map or oversee its development - not the data from which it came, but the data on my map, then I don't feel that I can include it. I'm talking about the case where the util company employee takes my map and without my ability to see if he is placing the info on my map carefully, carelessly, or fictionally, I have no way of factually stating that the data is from GIS data, Record Drawings, or the utility employees imagination.
Quality level D comprises "information derived from existing records or oral recollections," and quality level C incorporates level D. A map marked up by a representative of a utility owner would constitute information derived from existing records, in my opinion.
In any case, I think the "verify" caution in my note provides more realistic protection from liability than does omitting information about the utility entirely. I figure I'm likely to get sued if something goes wrong one way or the other, and I'd rather be able to go into court saying "You were warned" rather than "Well, I didn't think the information available to me would be useful."
Jim in AZ, post: 355119, member: 249 wrote: I wouldn't think that Professional Liability Insurance would be available for this. Is it a Professional service?
Jim that is precisely my point. I have seen surveyors use a non-professional and then state on the plat that Mom & Pop utility locator is responsible for the utilities shown. When I sub work, I want them to share the liability and definitely want a Certificate of Insurance before entering into a contract. Utility locators are like Surveyors in that you may not get what you pay for, but you will almost never get what you don't pay for. Good utility locations require skill and great persistence. A bad utility locator is worst than not having one at all. The Surveyor using the cheap Locator will have similar results as the Client using the cheap Surveyor.
