Something HAS to give

You mean Jeff Lucas hasn't had enough of trash talking other surveyors yet?

Well, I for one think we should always watch for disturbed, bent, and moved monuments.?ÿ
Iƒ??ve had my pins moved before. This makes the client responsible for his own pincushion of corners.?ÿ
Nate

@nate-the-surveyor This brings up an interesting discussion we had at the office this past week. Cad operator A. ?ÿIs awesome been drafting for years. ?ÿMany crews he has seen come and go. One issue is. Iron rod found. IRF or Iron Rod Set IRS. Doesnƒ??t matter if it was a pipe bent pinched top size etc. rebar size nope. Above ground below ground. In other words the field crews that follow instructions and say 5/8ƒ? rebar or 1/2ƒ?. Cap or no cap. Disturbed etc that never makes it to the plat. Cad operator B is trained by CAD operator A. ?ÿ CAD operator B trains C etc. ?ÿetc. ?ÿ same with crew chiefs and i man. It just keeps going. Where does the issue ever get fixed. ?ÿI read plats and some have described the monument. So when i get to a monument and find something different. Say a 1/2ƒ? rebar but plat etc calls for pinched top pipe or axel. I usually keep digging and looking. Thats how I was trained and taught. ?ÿIt doesnƒ??t matter how well this new uncalled for monument fits a computed point. I know I hear it all the time. Just do a quick look and move on we have to make money. That song is in my head Money Money money. ?ÿ My opinion and observations say it has happened slowly overtime maybe. It seems the small shops I follow are better at describing and leaving the bread crumbs to be followed. ?ÿThe larger and more engineering type firms are less likely to describe. Not all just in my little time back in land surveying is what I have noticed.?ÿ

As I study and prepare for licensure. ?ÿThis phrase that is spoken by many LS and many of them practice it many donƒ??t. Is the responsible charge thing. Seems that it is interpreted way differently depending on who is stamping. Or who is in charge. I believe one cause of pin cushions is this very thing. Not truly being in responsible charge. The first boundary i went on being back in land surveying. I had just went to do deed and plat search at courthouse. The day before. Next day I spent a couple hours walking site and looking for corners. No mag locator just me a shovel and carefully calibrated pacing. ????. I took the old plat and had written notes on it and flagged up several corners I found. Description of size type and such. Dropped all off at office and was sent to a different job. Couple weeks later i see the plat laying on drafting table. I looked at it and asked if it was going out. Ls said yes one last look over and i am sending it out. I said something is missing. So he grabbed field folder and handed me a pen and highlighters. I marked it up and said ck these notes. I found this and this and it is a axel here not rebar etc. so no need to set a pin. Ls saw my notes and said first i had heard this. I showed him my markups on the plat from courthouse no one looked at them. They just cogo the deed and disregarded everything else. Is this common practice was I trained wrong years ago. I see more of this than how i was trained years ago. I hear itƒ??s different here in this state. We donƒ??t do that. I surveyed in several states and they did. Most anyways. I see it on plats here usually by those old timers and smaller shops. Big companies its not as much. ?ÿ

I occasionally would run into work of a surveyor who would set pins 3ƒ? from existing pins. Always gave me a laugh.?ÿ

@nate-the-surveyor This brings up an interesting discussion we had at the office this past week. Cad operator A. ?ÿIs awesome been drafting for years. ?ÿMany crews he has seen come and go. One issue is. Iron rod found. IRF or Iron Rod Set IRS. Doesnƒ??t matter if it was a pipe bent pinched top size etc. rebar size nope. Above ground below ground. In other words the field crews that follow instructions and say 5/8ƒ? rebar or 1/2ƒ?. Cap or no cap. Disturbed etc that never makes it to the plat. Cad operator B is trained by CAD operator A. ?ÿ CAD operator B trains C etc. ?ÿetc. ?ÿ same with crew chiefs and i man. It just keeps going. Where does the issue ever get fixed. ?ÿI read plats and some have described the monument. So when i get to a monument and find something different. Say a 1/2ƒ? rebar but plat etc calls for pinched top pipe or axel. I usually keep digging and looking. Thats how I was trained and taught. ?ÿIt doesnƒ??t matter how well this new uncalled for monument fits a computed point. I know I hear it all the time. Just do a quick look and move on we have to make money. That song is in my head Money Money money. ?ÿ My opinion and observations say it has happened slowly overtime maybe. It seems the small shops I follow are better at describing and leaving the bread crumbs to be followed. ?ÿThe larger and more engineering type firms are less likely to describe. Not all just in my little time back in land surveying is what I have noticed.?ÿ

As I study and prepare for licensure. ?ÿThis phrase that is spoken by many LS and many of them practice it many donƒ??t. Is the responsible charge thing. Seems that it is interpreted way differently depending on who is stamping. Or who is in charge. I believe one cause of pin cushions is this very thing. Not truly being in responsible charge. The first boundary i went on being back in land surveying. I had just went to do deed and plat search at courthouse. The day before. Next day I spent a couple hours walking site and looking for corners. No mag locator just me a shovel and carefully calibrated pacing. ????. I took the old plat and had written notes on it and flagged up several corners I found. Description of size type and such. Dropped all off at office and was sent to a different job. Couple weeks later i see the plat laying on drafting table. I looked at it and asked if it was going out. Ls said yes one last look over and i am sending it out. I said something is missing. So he grabbed field folder and handed me a pen and highlighters. I marked it up and said ck these notes. I found this and this and it is a axel here not rebar etc. so no need to set a pin. Ls saw my notes and said first i had heard this. I showed him my markups on the plat from courthouse no one looked at them. They just cogo the deed and disregarded everything else. Is this common practice was I trained wrong years ago. I see more of this than how i was trained years ago. I hear itƒ??s different here in this state. We donƒ??t do that. I surveyed in several states and they did. Most anyways. I see it on plats here usually by those old timers and smaller shops. Big companies its not as much. ?ÿ

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The issue gets fixed when the signing surveyor demands it be fixed.

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You mean Jeff Lucas hasn't had enough of trash talking other surveyors yet?

Well, there are lots of surveyors out there that have fully earned that trash talking.

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If BLM sets an SP 1/4S and you find the original ask them to revise their survey. You need really convincing evidence, like a marked stone, scribed face on a BT. Also they will be reluctant if their SP mon has been relied upon by the public for many decades.

We either have to change the monument, (Pincushion), Change the Record Brg/distance, or we can USE the old distance, having one coord for the field marker, and another for the OFFICE or calculated one.

I'm having a hard time following this notion. Those are not the only choices where I survey. Noting a measured as distance does not change the record. The record is the record. Measured is measured. It's impossible to measure the same every time.?ÿ

I have Jeff Lucas's book and I read it, but it is very much another text book and I did not get much new info out of it.

In my part of Upstate New York the record dimensions rule, so we show the monuments refenced to the record.?ÿ ?ÿ?ÿ

record dimensions rule

How can the record dimensions be held on adjoining parcels? The measurements are rarely perfect and won't fit each other.

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@ars-mine-surveyor

Do you hold record dimensions over natural and artificial monuments? How about extrinsic evidence or occupation?

Also, which record? It's not unusual for a property I'm surveying to have 3, 4 or more records of survey over the years, all with different values for bearings and distances.

@tommy-young?ÿ

True, but Lucas, himself deserves some scrutiny and trash talking too, over some of the opinions he's offered

I have Jeff Lucas's book and I read it, but it is very much another text book and I did not get much new info out of it.

In my part of Upstate New York the record dimensions rule, so we show the monuments refenced to the record.?ÿ ?ÿ?ÿ

?ÿ

You're going to tell me more about this, because it sounds like the survey would have a call to a point, and then cute little language like "North 0.53', East 0.87' from a found steel rod".

I am violently opposed to doing that, and in fact, if I voiced my full opinion in this forum, I'd get a lifetime ban.

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@tommy-young?ÿ

True, but Lucas, himself deserves some scrutiny and trash talking too, over some of the opinions he's offered

That may be, but he's far more right than wrong.

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How can the record dimensions be held on adjoining parcels? The measurements are rarely perfect and won't fit each other.

All 4 directions from a given corner say something.

1.) N 01?ø01'01" E 100'

2.) S 01?ø01'01" W 100'

3.) S 89?ø01'01" E 100'

4.) N 89?ø01'01" W 100'

From a given property pin. The dimensions are all there.The monuments are all there.

And, they all generate a coord that is within 0.02' of the SAME position.

And, West 0.59' of this generated coord, is a MONUMENT. It is a 5/8" rebar, that is probably over 3 feet long.

Now, on our plat, (Land to the SE) do we hold RECORD dimensions number 2 and 3, or do we update the "Record" by 0.59'?

Bill, that is what I meant.

Thank you for your response.

Nate

@ars-mine-surveyor Hmmƒ??must be a regional thing because most states in my region generally hold monuments above all else largely due to most parcels being tied to old deeds where bearings and distances seldom agree with the adjoining deed but may call out the same monument. Also, more often than not, the bearing and distance might be 20ƒ?? off from the monument given the equipment from the era the parcel was surveyed in.

@nate-the-surveyor

Now, on our plat, (Land to the SE) do we hold RECORD dimensions number 2 and 3, or do we update the "Record" by 0.59'?

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We...show what we measured, as well as the record calls.

Showing measured vs. record isn't changing the record, but adding to it.

Even if we decided not to hold a monument, or our survey is at variance with a previous survey, it doesn't automatically override all previous work. It simply adds another survey to the record.

Different customary practices exist all over the place.?ÿ When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Bill, that is what I meant.

No, what I meant, and didn't say clearly, was that if you try to give everybody the record dimensions you will either run out of ground or have some left over. And some adjoining parcel records may not agree on the line between them. That's why monuments rule.

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