Studying for my FS exam and bought the (very expensive) HP35S calculator off of eBay. Attempted to do some sin, cos, tan etc of angles using degrees, minutes, seconds, and it seems to be a huge downfall of the calculator. It has a HMS option where you can enter a DMS value, but it’s in XX.XXXX format (there are no symbols for DMS). So this is easily confused with just a decimal number instead of DMS. Basically a DMS formatted number looks the same as a decimal on this calculator because it doesn’t have the DMS symbols. Seems like a huge downfall to me. Thinking of switching to the TI-36X pro since you can insert the degree, minutes, seconds symbol and it will spit out an answer with the symbols. Less guess work.
The HP35 just takes practice. You have to convert the HMS to decimal before you run the trig functions, then convert the results back to HMS. Overall, the HP's "reverse Polish notation" way of doing things will give you an advantage in keeping your intermediate steps organized.
By all means - use the calculator you are comfortable with. Just make sure that the one you choose is on the approved list. Like Half-Bubble I prefer the RPN of the HPs, but it did take a while to become accustomed to it.
Rest assured that there aren't a lot of problems that need to be worked in detail on the FS. In most cases you need only to recognize that one of the multiple choice answers is reasonable and that the other choices are not.
I have to have my HP calculator, but you do need to pay attention to DMS and d.ddd. Normally it's simple to tell, of course anything that has more than .5 isn't DMS, or anything above 5 in the third place after the .
>it will spit out an answer with the symbols.
Here resides the problem. The TI calculators let you type in a long equation with parentheses and spit out an answer, right or wrong, with no common sense checks along the way. The HP makes you enter every step from the innermost outwards, and you can notate it as you go, which is like having an "undo" for every moment of your attempted solution. If you goof an entry with the TI you gotta start over. If you goof an entry with the HP you can see it in real time. If you are using the provided scratch paper as intended you can write out every step and keep your game on track.
It has a HMS option where you can enter a DMS value, but it’s in XX.XXXX format (there are no symbols for DMS). So this is easily confused with just a decimal number instead of DMS. Basically a DMS formatted number looks the same as a decimal on this calculator because it doesn’t have the DMS symbols.
Yeah, I have repeatedly asked others who have used HP35s in the past to confirm that "If, for example, I enter 36.1234 in the collector and then do -->HMS the calculator assumes I entered decimal degrees (and vice versa), correct?" and every single time I have gotten blank stares like I'm speaking alien. This question seems fairly straight forward to me, but for whatever reason it seems to confuse the hell out of people.
Anyway, I agree the lack of on-screen notation is lazy poor design.
It's in the manual....
After being a lifelong fan of Texas Instruments (TI) calculators, I switched to the Casio fx-115ES Plus calculator for all my surveying exams, and I keep it at my desk to this day. It's great for DMS calculations, as well as DMS to DD (decimal degrees) conversions or vice-versa. It does show the symbols for DMS.
I've also used the HP35s, but in my opinion, the only advantage that it has is the ability to program it for specific calculations. I'm also not a fan of Reverse Polish Notation (RPN).
Keep in mind, you may be able to take more than one calculator into your exams (double check the rules/policy before actually trying this). I took both the Casio fx-115ES Plus and the HP35s into my state-specific exam. I used the Casio fx-115ES Plus for everything, except the one specific type of calculation that I had programmed my HP35s for.
I'm not sure when I started using HP's, I'm thinking 1978. I did so many coordinate calculations with them that I could do them in my sleep. No way could I use a TI or Casio now. It's frustrating to use any non HP calculator, even the one on my PC.
But now I never hit the sin cos button, it's just for +-/*
I'll also note that DMS calculations and conversions between DMS & DD are easier and faster on the Casio fx-115ES Plus than they are on the TI-36X Pro. For the TI-36X Pro, you press the "math" button, then navigate through a popup menu; however, on the Casio fx-115ES Plus there is a dedicated button (has the DMS symbols on it) that does it directly without using a popup menu.
Before you purchase the TI-36X Pro, I would recommend watching some YouTube videos of DMS on each calculator.
I have used HP RPN so long that using a regular calculator to do simple arithmetic I often blunder. I mean to enter 1+1= to get 2 versus 1 <enter> 1 +. Makes me have to think lol. I understand many use different calculators for sure. But I don’t think anyone could argue that if doing most any manual comps that RPN time wise and such is not the most proficient method. Don’t even get me started on the stack. Also you can have a built in process to run grades along a slope at each station and have a closure at end that if is anything other than exact proves a blunder. I love HP. And yes they no longer make them which make so sad .
Sad Indeed. "I feel your pain".
Dad made it to 98 and some. At about 90 he said the only thing that was keeping his brain sharp was the fact he had to keep the decimal in his head whilst running the slide rule.
I have heard talk that some organizations are trying to get someone to produce the HP without the other technology that is embedded now days so it can be used on the exams. It seems that maybe it’s time to rethink how the exams are done so it wouldn’t matter what tool or calculator or data collector was used. Now I am a big proponent of knowing how to solve problems long hand without any programming but it’s just not the reality we live in. I know a few great surveyors that in many ways are way superior in their knowledge to me on everyday Land Surveying task. Now they can use cad to solve problems get things computed . But they struggle to do anything like that with a calculator. I have one I am supposed to start tutoring soon. He probably has more knowledge to pass the state specific exam than I do. He understands all the local and state requirements regulations etc. I told him I can get him over the hump and said I just need to reprogram your brain a bit. You have to approach the test not from how you would do it in cad but paper and calculator. He is an extremely intelligent person. Maybe we can do some horse trading. He can teach me how to do cad after I get him spun up on solving problems with a calculator. If he decides to let me help him. He has gone through and had his hp all programmed the hp35s . I thought about doing mine but then I would have to learn the program when most is not needed. I think maybe that’s why some struggle is they are dependent on a program instead of understanding and solving different math problems to solve the question.
" I have heard talk that some organizations are trying to get someone to
produce the HP without the other technology that is embedded now days so
it can be used on the exams"
Not sure I follow you here?
Tommy - you have to be careful there, keep track of what you have going on in order to remember to convert back. I've also had mine return, for example, 35d48m60s when it was 35d49m. Don't know what caused it and rarely does it, but it does it. Made sure you check your programs too. I was having trouble with coming up with the same answer as provided on practice exams, bearing/bearing intersect (calc'ing center quarter cor). I checked manually and practice exam answer was correct (they are not all correct, I've found numerous errors, typos, in every study book I've looked at, it's maddening). I went back and checked the sums and found B/B in the count that I missed when programming. I still don't trust it and will run Law of Sin manually now for that one type problem instead of relying on the program. I programmed to save time. Practically every test I've ever taken I'm one of the last ones done, so that's something I have to account for in these timed tests.
@jbw Someone is making an alternative to the various hp calculators they look identical but I believe the new ones have a way you can connect to them to upload or use a usb or something. So that is the only thing holding them back from being able to be used for the exams. They have one that mirrors the hp32s the 35s etc and others. Some type of memory all computer speak. Which after I left the govt I tried to dump all that from my veto make room for other things. I hope before I am done someone keeps the RPN function around. It’s funny when reading history. Hp has had several iterations of a hp35 like is used today. They even had a hp35 digital slide rule.
@GaryG that’s it I think . I think some people are trying to get them to make that without the added features so it can be used on the exams. They are basically the HP’s but have some extra functionality that are not approved by the NCEES board.
@OL Yea, when I took the Maryland test in 2003 I was exempt from fundamentals, took Principle and Practice, Maryland Law and Maryland Engineering and I could use the HP41cx. Later on when I applied for PA I had to back up and take Fundamentals and at by that time The only HP on the list of approved calculators was the HP 35s.
Once your used to the input structure its a great, tough calculator.
As far as the calculator "assuming" your input I would say there is an expectation that if you put in a number and execute a command such as DMS or DD you know what you input and know what you expect for output.
When I took the Maryland test in 2003 I was exempt from fundamentals, took Principle and Practice, Maryland Law and Maryland Engineering and I could use the HP41cx.
41 was on the verboten list by the time I took Maryland in 2006