Internal building surveying

Surveyors measure buildings on a regular basis this side of the pond and they can be quite lucrative. Just completed a large building over 6 floors about 200 rooms. Do you have to do elevations and sections through the building as well?

We would traverse through the building getting as much as possible with reflector-less total station, mainly the larger rooms and halls including the footprint of the building, taking in floor levels as you go. We then would use the following software with a bluetooth disto MBS Floor plans This allows us to measure the smaller rooms more accurately. If you are only going to use the software once it may not be worth purchasing (and there is a steep learning curve) but definitely get a disto. Tape works as well but the disto will help you cross brace awkward shaped rooms etc.

Also double the amount of time you think it will take you. Trust me it always takes nearly twice as long to get all the detail inside.

Totalsurv, post: 377557, member: 8202 wrote: Surveyors measure buildings on a regular basis this side of the pond and they can be quite lucrative. Just completed a large building over 6 floors about 200 rooms. Do you have to do elevations and sections through the building as well?

We would traverse through the building getting as much as possible with reflector-less total station, mainly the larger rooms and halls including the footprint of the building, taking in floor levels as you go. We then would use the following software with a bluetooth disto MBS Floor plans This allows us to measure the smaller rooms more accurately. If you are only going to use the software once it may not be worth purchasing (and there is a steep learning curve) but definitely get a disto. Tape works as well but the disto will help you cross brace awkward shaped rooms etc.

Also double the amount of time you think it will take you. Trust me it always takes nearly twice as long to get all the detail inside.

Get the level of detail required in writing and absolutely explicit.
If I was doing another (I completely avoid them) I would be very interested to try something like the ZEB-REVO handheld scanner.

squowse, post: 377558, member: 7109 wrote:
If I was doing another (I completely avoid them) I would be very interested to try something like the ZEB-REVO handheld scanner.

I have seen a demo of one of those handheld scanners and they are very interesting. I plan on using it in the future. However I think you would want to be using it and doing building surveys on a regular basis as there is a bit of a learning curve with processing the point clouds. I don't think it would be a good idea for a one off project. Also a lot of detail may still be have to be manually measured by disto/tape. It also doesn't work very well in long corridors as it needs shapes nearby to continuously calibrate. Saying that I will definitely be using it in the future, particularly on heritage projects.

Absolute dittos, on the "twice as long" comment. Not just the field work, but on the drafting.
Also, there are going to be patients there, just not a full staff.
These patients will want to talk... And Run away, (and ask you to help them do it).
Make that 2.5 times as much as you think...
N

You can thank me, and Totalsurv later, for the 2x and 2.5x as long later!
(I borrowed that line from Kent, but it fits better here!)
If it's not your standard kind of work, it will take longer, just for that.

All the best surveying to you!
N

[USER=291]@Nate The Surveyor[/USER]
Nate,
Did you gain this experience and insight prior to coming to Arkansas? Did you do the interior of the Benton Nervous Hospital and meet a feller named Carl??

DDSM

SEB get the architects to give you a run down on what they propose.
I did a supermarket lately and it was an added on affair dating back to Abel Tasman.

Otherwise you may well do a complete overkill and spend days or a couple of weeks or you will be going back and forth adding stuff as ideas fly in their heads.

But knowing that joint I can imagine its nooks and crannies and indents etc will drive you crazy.
Is it a refit? Does joinery occur on site? How exacting are they wanting things? These were the issues I dealt with. Must say it was a pleasant interaction with my architects and they were precise in their requirements.

One thing to watch is wall thicknesses and ceiling heights. Screens, false walls, cupboards etc can be misleading.
Check below and above cupboards.
I discovered a wall changed thickness half way up from 100 to 200 mm Besser Block.

Total Station along with Disto is the way I'd envisage. (or just fly it!! Sure the boss would love that)

If you're having to quote for the job then emphasise the length of a bit of string rule.

I could add more but that's a starter - or I could come and do it!! Actually I don't envy anyone doing that one.

Wife described place as a 'dogs dinner'.

Dan, I have been in the room, when the aftermath (no pun intended) of one of these was being discussed. And, I do believe it was a hospital!
N

I have done many of these. They are time consuming and usually require much detal.
I have found the best way without scanning is to just start drawing the plan as you measure. Remember when processing into cad that things aren't always going to line up. Pay attention to wall thicknesses and main support walls.

Also I draw everything in us feet and scale up by 12 to label in architectural units for my deliverables.

Good luck

Traverse through, but locate point on walls to measure from, my reflectorless isn't good enough reaching into corners to be accurate enough for this type of work, plus you can shoot more areas from one setup. Better to shoot a piece of tape on a wall, and measure both ways. You may not need to do as much traverse work as you think, get a good framework, and build the walls out from there. You can also measure from door frames, and/or windows to transfer from room to room or inside to outside - if you are careful.

My biggest suggestion, is don't mess with a field book, take a helper with a laptop w. CAD on a rolling cart and draft the rooms right there while you measure them. To start, just use ortho and 90d corners and plot them out right, number the room and set it aside. You can immediately see if you have any issues to deal with, and you can then fit them into your traverse later in the office. Like others said, watch the wall thicknesses. I did a 80 yr old building converted to condo, and spent days figuring out there were walls varying from 4" to 28" thick, with no rhyme or reason.

We have done this before and one of the biggest issues was getting into the rooms. The employees did not appreciate us being in the way. Being a hospital I can see many logistic issues . You will be slowed down in your work. Triple the price unless you just need something to do.

I realise that this is one off project you're talking about but if it was to become a regular thing then 4Site could be a good investment.

http://appsincadd.com/4siteoverview

dsgroi, post: 377759, member: 11203 wrote: We have done this before and one of the biggest issues was getting into the rooms. The employees did not appreciate us being in the way. Being a hospital I can see many logistic issues . You will be slowed down in your work. Triple the price unless you just need something to do.

Been lucky in that most of these I've done have been vacant buildings. We usually run control through first with TS and tripod targets and hit each enclosed space with reflectorless. It takes a bit of finesse to be able to accurately describe a 3d surfaces, but with enough shots it gets easier. The fun ones have property lines running through the walls and all sorts of mayhem ensues. I written a dozen little quit-claim conveyances for things like a strip 2.5' wide and 20' long, tapering down to 0.5' wide.

One however was not vacant. It was a place called "Joe's Taverna" down near campus...it was a hot day...and the a/c inside Joe's felt good...and since I was the boss I decided we all could have a cold one (or two) when we were done.

Then there was the restaurant that found out their public restrooms were mostly on the property next door...owned by a little old dude that ran a key & lock shop next door. They had been at odds with the old man for years and suddenly had to start kissing his butt so they could rectify the situation.

I've been very happy that we invested in these for inside buildings:

They have been very useful.

I did it once in a newly constructed concrete tilt up building that they were going to add a second floor constructed from structural steel that would tie to the existing columns and walls between the existing floor and existing trusses above.. They were asking for 1/8" tolerances. The existing columns were +- 2" from their plan grid position at ground level and +- another 2" as you plumbed a plumb line up from their ground position to the trusses above. I did a little sample of 6 column locations and turned it back to the structural engineer and asked him at what point on the existing columns do we need to be +- 1/8" :). The game plan changed at that point and it really opened my eyes as to how precise buildings are actually built. Jp

Always draw your rooms out - one to a page (except for little ones) and keep a master key plan so you know where they fit in the jigsaw and you know which ones you missed (usually the locked cupboard)..

Sketch out the overall outline of each room first, then fill in the details, otherwise you will ALWAYS run out of space before your sketch is finished. The attached shows the sketch sheet I use.

If you have external control points consider sticking paper targets to some windows and fixing them from outside. You can then pick these up either on the internal traverse or by using them as ties for internal Disto measurements.

Decide how you are going to take measurements at door openings and BE CONSISTENT. More mistakes occur by measuring to different positions on the frame from adjacent rooms. The frame may not be the same on each side.

When you traverse down a corridor pick up both sides of the door openings.At least that way when the sizes don't match the sketches you can at least centralise them. Check the wall thicknesses clear of the door openings.

If a wall is going to change thickness it will always do so behind a cupboard. Don't ask me how the architect knew where cupboards would be put.

Beware of overhead beams and columns which have sides of different widths or are out of square with the walls.

Best of luck.

Seb, post: 377556, member: 7509 wrote:

Considering the access issues (most work will be weekend as hospital is fully operational Mon-Fri) and the not so great nature of the architects instructions, I am thinking probably four days to complete.

Does the hospital have procedures for maintaining sterile conditions in the operating rooms that you would need to follow? If your crew would have to wear sterile surgical garments, etc., it could take some time each day to change into and out of them. Would equipment need to be wiped down with a disinfectant before being used in the ORs?

Seems like pictures with chalkboard would be useful...not sure about patient privacy issues.

Many thanks all for the replies. I'm not sure I'll get the job as I think I may have scared the architect with the size of the quote...

All very good tips though. This is exactly why I read this forum and why I should get off my butt and contribute more.

I love the targets on the window idea which is a great idea. We have a folding thing for setting up on slippery floors that I'll take a photo of next week and post here.

Thanks all

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