I've got a scenario I would like some input on from fellow licensed Surveyors: Imagine you work for a multi office National company. They decide to create their own "standards of practice" or 'survey procedures' as they call them. They are not correct nor do they meet your states minimum standards that you work in. My question is, do you feel these "supervisors" should be making procedures on a "one size fits all" aspect? Also, do you feel persons that you work for can legally dictate procedures, or as i see it, "Be in responsible charge" if they are not licensed in your state in the first place? Furthermore, what is your legal, professional and moral obligation seeing you are licensed and, in my opinion, should know better??ÿ
To me, having tried very hard for many yrs to do good work, that company should have all their tripods broken. With an axe. It's simply a company that should be disposed of. A bad company can do millions in damage to title, and to the public record, in a few months.
It can never be "fixed".
N
Yes, company management can dictate procedures. To a degree, at least.?ÿ In fact that is what management is supposed to do. Imagine that the company was dictating procedures that far exceeded minimums. Would you object to that??ÿ But, as a licensed professional,?ÿ you can't undercut your state's minimum standards just because an upper manager tells you to.?ÿ If you do it, it's on you.?ÿ?ÿ
The minimum?ÿ standard in all 3 states I'm licensed in effectively says that you can't provide responsible charge supervision in more than one office. Theoretically supervision could be done remotely (phone, email, network, video conference, etc.) but it could be a hard sell with the board if something goes sideways.
Frankly, minimum standards are just that - minimums. The very least you can do.?ÿ Not what you should be doing. So if there is no way around this with your management you have to get out to protect your license.
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The only other licensed person in our state for the company other than me is my direct supervisor. That person who tehnically is in charge doesn't seem to mind them not meeting the minimums.?ÿ I really am in a bad place. I've made comments and provided documents for them about this. They just ignore them. It isn't a good feeling.?ÿ
If you are a licensed surveyor, your BOR sets the minimum standards for you to follow and none of these can be ignored.
Your company can make their own set of rules to follow and for their part you probably need to follow them until they conflict with what your State BOR rules are and you best follow what the BOR wants.
Your company regulates your job with them
The State BOR controls your ability to have a license.
If you are not licensed, your company can make whatever rules to follow as long as they do not violate your civil rights and any fair working regulations controlled by your state and the USA.
Not following state BOR regulations can also affect your posibility of being licensed.
goodluck
Start evaluating alternative employment.
If they were trying to set their own speed limits, minimum wage, or osha regulations everyone would know the correct answer. I don't see this as being much different.?ÿ
The licensee is responsible to meet the standard of care and comply with the laws and rules. That includes the exercise of responsible charge. If a manager instructs you to ignore that you have two choices. Educate them or leave.
OK, third choice, educate them AND leave...
The only other licensed person in our state for the company other than me is my direct supervisor. That person who tehnically is in charge doesn't seem to mind them not meeting the minimums.?ÿ I really am in a bad place. I've made comments and provided documents for them about this. They just ignore them. It isn't a good feeling.?ÿ
Who stamps most of the work??ÿ If it is all him, isn't this his decision?
The person stamping them is the only other licensed person other than myself. That is my direct supervisor, that person is aware as well but doesn't seem to really care. They are more worried about going along with what the bosses say. I am more worried about doing it correctly. So, is it on the person stamping to ensure the minimums are followed or is it also on the also licensed person conducting the work?
I agree with others that it best you think of an alternate place to work unless you think you can fix their problems.?ÿ If you leave, I would also recommend filing a complaint with the board about the company and their policy.?ÿ I think this would protect your own license from their actions.?ÿ If you do nothing and leave knowing they are violating your local codes then I think some of that could come back to haunt you later though probably not as bad as staying and doing nothing would.?ÿ Good luck, this is not an easy problem to deal with.?ÿ
There are many opinions and disagreements about technical procedures and standards when it comes to surveying. Some of them are important and some are frankly nit-picky nonsense.?ÿ
Line weights on plats, writing a metes description around a lot, curving east-west lines in the PLSS, incorrectly using the term State Plane for a basis of bearings, filing a corner record using an older form. These can really trigger some surveyors, others just get a chuckle out of them.
If these are the types of procedures and disagreements you mean then I wouldn't have a problem working there and you can probably up their game just by example, if it's more material like not setting corners for a new description or not doing research then I would try to find another place to work if those are company standards.?ÿ
There isn't anyone I've ever heard of who worked long enough in this profession that didn't violate some rule or regulation.?ÿ
i have a similar scenario right now, however it is with a client who has an in-house design team.?ÿ they've given me a boatload of work, from doing title on sites they're acquiring to design surveys for construction to platting.?ÿ when i signed up they gave me about half a dozen files and said "adhere to these."?ÿ mainly CAD standards, which... ok.?ÿ they're stupid (8500 layers but nothing to differentiate, say, back of curb and gutter.?ÿ and graphically it's a nightmare.), but they want what they want and it was easy enough to set up a different set of CAD templates.
BUT, i put my foot down on platting.?ÿ and keep in mind they haven't squawked one bit about cost or anything i do that goes above and beyond what they're used to getting (which i've seen, and which ain't great).?ÿ basically i told them they weren't from around here and weren't familiar with local platting standards and regulations, and while they do have considerable money and muscle behind them, that i wished them luck trying to bend the local authorities to their CAD standards.?ÿ so i'd do their design work to meet their needs, but they would take plats and title surveys that satisfied MY requirements.?ÿ otherwise they could roll the dice on finding somebody else locally who would be a more dutiful consultant.
they weren't thrilled at first, but after two successful go-rounds they signed me up for another half dozen sites.?ÿ point being: go dictate some terms.?ÿ you might be surprised how flexing a little muscle might get your employers to change their tune.?ÿ or you might get fired.?ÿ either way, at least you tried.
oops, double post.
Question - Can you provide an example of the conflict between the in-house survey procedures and the state standards of practice?
do you feel these "supervisors" should be making procedures on a "one size fits all" aspect?
I don't think it is too unusual to try this in multi-office companies where work product will be emailed back and forth across multiple offices and people.?ÿ While it seems very common for CAD standards, it could also be useful for research and field procedures if crews may be sent to various states.
It makes sense to have some level of standardization so that people in each office don't have to constantly be asking the other office about minor items.?ÿ So the one size fits all doesn't bother me as much as setting the in-office standards below any of the states that might be covered.?ÿ My opinion would be they should have selected the most stringent standards of each of the states involved in order to stay above the minimum of any of the states they are in.
do you feel persons that you work for can legally dictate procedures, or as i see it, "Be in responsible charge" if they are not licensed in your state in the first place?
I do not agree with the idea of an unlicensed person being in responsible charge, but I am not sure that I would see just setting out standard procedures for technical aspects of the job as being in responsible charge --- until they override the advice of the licensed professional pointing out their standards do not meet the state requirements.?ÿ IF they were in one state, a "survey procedures" for the company could be a simple cut/paste from the state regulations.?ÿ Since the standards they set are in violation of your state standards and they ignored your notification of such, there is an issue.?ÿ But as Norman Oklahoma mentioned, if they were in excess then this discussion wouldn't be happening.
what is your legal, professional and moral obligation seeing you are licensed and, in my opinion, should know better??ÿ
Professional obligation one - provide supervisor with written documentation showing the areas where their standards would create a situation where the company would be in violation of the state standards include with that the language for the requirement to follow the state standards as well as the potential consequences for not doing so.?ÿ Recommend to them that they review their guidelines for compliance with state statutes and regulations for surveying practice.?ÿ This gives them the opportunity to fix the issue.?ÿ Sounds like you may have already done this, but make sure it is done in writing with citation to the proper supporting documents.
Moral obligation - do the work you are involved in to the state standards or higher.
Professional/moral/legal - If they choose to continue to violate the state standards, you would need to provide a formal complaint to your licensing board detailing the issue.
"an unlicensed person being in responsible charge"
I believe that can't actually happen. the Professional will be charged with that responsibility. You can not avoid that, don't try.
your local bean counter may control your work life, but YOU will always be responsible for your work.
Make damned sure you know your governing authority's definition of Responsible Charge.?ÿ
These are all field procedures I am speaking of. More accurately, GPS practices. Where, in TN for example they vary plainly set the standards of, "all federal guidelines will be followed." This was actually rectified today after yet another conversation of State standards. I'm glad it was. At the end of the day, you have to meet or exceed every States standards you work in. Company standards are a great idea, but must be fairly general as to not superceed and one state you work in.?ÿ
Who stamps most of the work??ÿ If it is all him, isn't this his decision?
I am afraid not. As professionals we have an obligation to the public and our peers to adhere to a standard. If one does not meet this standard it is our duty to call them out and report to the governing body. Why would you condone unsatisfactory behavior when there is a chance that you may need to work with that data someday or appear in court to defend it??ÿ
In NC, a PLS must adhere to minimum standard regardless of who seals the final plat or report.?ÿ
Even if your boss seals all the office's survey products, you are still likely to be just as liable as him on any given project performed in your state of licensure. Just imagine how a court would receive a defense of, "Yes, I am a licensed land surveyor in the state of Tennessee, and I was involved in said project in TN, but Bob was the one signed the plat."?ÿ
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Who stamps most of the work??ÿ If it is all him, isn't this his decision?
I am afraid not. As professionals we have an obligation to the public and our peers to adhere to a standard. If one does not meet this standard it is our duty to call them out and report to the governing body. Why would you condone unsatisfactory behavior when there is a chance that you may need to work with that data someday or appear in court to defend it??ÿ
Maybe ethically speaking, but does your state have laws that require this??ÿ I know California does not.