Really?

I've definitely noticed a "race to the bottom" around here over the last couple of years. If one can't perform a survey both correctly and profitably one needs to, as you have stated, call it quits. At least on those surveys that seem to attract the most aggressive price-minded survey firms.

Surviving in this profession can be tricky. The environment is a double-edged sword. Hack firms that cut prices make it difficult at times, but they don't last long...making it profitable for those of us that do stay in business.

My suggestion: find yourself a specific area and niche in which you can operate profitably. I could tell other surveyors where mine are at...but then I'd just have to get rid of them. 😉

Would the ratio of field work to office be 2:1 for an ALTA survey? What if a person works from home without an equipment debt?

$12000/$200/hour = 60 hours or $12000/$150/hour = 80 hours or $2000/$100/hour = 20 hours

I think that is part of the problem and the "race to the bottom" as others like to say.

Just because you can do this cheaper does not take away from the worth of the product.
We have guys around here that will do flood certs for $300 - in New Jersey that is just crazy with the amount of work that is available.

While I certainly understand that certain technologies can make things happen quicker, you shouldn't give them away especially when the difference is so large. We also just got a large construction job awarded to us where one of the competitors was less than a third of most bids. Luckily the client was smart enough not to jump on that one.
I don't know the size of this ALTA but we just priced a half acre ALTA at @ $ 2,800 and were told to go ahead.

I do understand that not every place has prices like California or Jersey for that matter. I am just amazed at how low some people will go to compete when there is a ton of work right now!

Apples and oranges me thinks. I struggle with value based vs T&M based fee service. Half acre, vacant lot in a previously surveyed, monumented and recorded plat with no exceptions on Schedule B and only Item 1 checked on Table A just might cost less than a commercially developed half acre lot with a metes and bounds description starting at the center of Section 6 with 18 exceptions on Schedule B of the title report, and every box (except 15) checked on Table A. As far as the OP goes, I gotta wonder if Item 20 on Table A is checked? If the qualifications of the two surveyors are the same. Which person can deliver what is promised on time, has an office to meet the client in, can be on the site tomorrow to walk the site with the client if necessary, has insurance(s), answers the phone more than one day a week, is current on continuing education, attends professional society meetings (and monitors this forum), and has compiled decades of relevant records. We (I) need to be reminding the folks that we provide fee estimates for of our qualifications as part of the proposal process.

Jim in AZ, post: 453439, member: 249 wrote: I was just informed that a competitor has offered to perform an ALTA Survey for which I thought $12K was a fair price for $2K!

I'm getting ready to call it quits...

Unless it's an ALTA for an empty recently platted and monumented lot, that competitor will either soon raise their prices or be out of business.

Jim in AZ, post: 453439, member: 249 wrote: I was just informed that a competitor has offered to perform an ALTA Survey for which I thought $12K was a fair price for $2K!

I'm getting ready to call it quits...

I prefer to provide services to those who know the value of a reliable survey. I don't always get this type of client but I know the low baller is never this type of client.

Jim in AZ, post: 453439, member: 249 wrote: I was just informed that a competitor has offered to perform an ALTA Survey for which I thought $12K was a fair price for $2K!

I'm getting ready to call it quits...

Wow, huge difference there. Are you sure you were not way too high? I don't mean 2k too high. But just higher because it's an ALTA?

I do many ALTA's, and have so for the last 23 years since becoming licensed. I always see other surveyors coming up with crazy high prices for these. When I ask them why, the usual response is, "Because it's an ALTA"!

But my situation is different than most. My overhead is only about 20% of my yearly gross revenues. So there's that.

Even for $2000, probably a fair sized job.
8 hrs in field
8hrs In office
4 hrs verifying work
1 hr court house
(3.5 days)
If everything is done with 1man(the surveyor)
Materials :gps, total station, nails, flaging, pins, caps, truck (and fuel),
Computer, software,stamps, paper.
2000
- 23% taxes
- $100 material(gas,nails,flagging,lathes)
- $30 lunches (all 3 days)
=1410?ú21hrs
$67.14 an hr

Taking into account that the surveyor works from home that is paid for, and all of his equipment is paid for. Sure its a fair price. As long as he doesnt worry about future Equipment costs, health or business insurance (the lawyer (prosecuting) love to see paid off houses), continuing education costs, getting sick,future material cost, truck upkeep, field crews, and slow times).

When you start figuring any thing else for a business, that 67 it really starts dropping. Im not saying some altas cant be done for thatn but not with anytype of good business model with a reasonable profit margin.

dwayne, post: 453467, member: 12506 wrote: Would the ratio of field work to office be 2:1 for an ALTA survey? What if a person works from home without an equipment debt?

$12000/$200/hour = 60 hours or $12000/$150/hour = 80 hours or $2000/$100/hour = 20 hours

dwayne, post: 453467, member: 12506 wrote: Would the ratio of field work to office be 2:1 for an ALTA survey? What if a person works from home without an equipment debt?

$12000/$200/hour = 60 hours or $12000/$150/hour = 80 hours or $2000/$100/hour = 20 hours

Gregg Gaffney, post: 453473, member: 1111 wrote: Just because you can do this cheaper does not take away from the worth of the product.

Your liability is still out there whether it's 1$ survey for a relative or a 12K$ ALTA.

Forgive me if I end up saying the same as someone previous.
This is a very interesting issue. I've worked for both larges and small companies and have found different results. Bigger companies tend to have much higher overhead causing them to have to charge more to cover those costs. A smaller company doesn't usually have all of those costs and can charge less. Now, the question of how much less is the question. A large company may charge $12k and only make a profit margin of 20% while a smaller company may change $5k and only make a profit margin of 35%. I personally found smaller companies do better because of this. Now, there are those in smaller companies that try to overcharge. That's an issue in itself.

Possibly that other surveyor is merely updating work they already have in the can. Still $2k is roughly what should be charged for assuming liability even if no work at all is to be done.

Yep. Very possible.

Michael White, post: 453538, member: 12162 wrote: Wow, huge difference there. Are you sure you were not way too high? I don't mean 2k too high. But just higher because it's an ALTA?

I do many ALTA's, and have so for the last 23 years since becoming licensed. I always see other surveyors coming up with crazy high prices for these. When I ask them why, the usual response is, "Because it's an ALTA"!

But my situation is different than most. My overhead is only about 20% of my yearly gross revenues. So there's that.

It should not matter that your "situation is different than most" If the other Surveyors are getting the jobs at their crazy high prices then it sounds like you are leaving a lot of money on the table, and you undervalue your work.

I do agree with you on that just because it is an ALTA doesnt mean the price has to triple. But when I get calls 6 month laters from someone asking for a copy of the survey that I didnt know was part of the deal, or someone asking for names to be added, it reminds me why I charge more for ALTA.

dwayne, post: 453467, member: 12506 wrote: Would the ratio of field work to office be 2:1 for an ALTA survey? What if a person works from home without an equipment debt?

$12000/$200/hour = 60 hours or $12000/$150/hour = 80 hours or $2000/$100/hour = 20 hours

dwayne,

That has nothing to do with it. Its the VALUE of the work, not the cost to perform it. I just don't understand why we keep promoting ourselves as tradesmen instead of professionals.

Good grief. No wonder we are where we are at. 🙁

The price of a professional service should be based on the value of the service to the client NOT the monthly rent/cost of your office space!!!

I disagree that the price should be based on the value to the client. Tthe price should be based on the value of you providing the service the client is requesting.

Jarrod Antley, post: 453570, member: 13162 wrote: Forgive me if I end up saying the same as someone previous.
This is a very interesting issue. I've worked for both larges and small companies and have found different results. Bigger companies tend to have much higher overhead causing them to have to charge more to cover those costs. A smaller company doesn't usually have all of those costs and can charge less. Now, the question of how much less is the question. A large company may charge $12k and only make a profit margin of 20% while a smaller company may change $5k and only make a profit margin of 35%. I personally found smaller companies do better because of this. Now, there are those in smaller companies that try to overcharge. That's an issue in itself.

Do you mean to say that the smaller company should charge less because their overhead is less? I hope not. That thinking is our problem as Brian noted above.

The price of a professional service should be based on the value of the service to the client NOT the monthly rent/cost of your office space!!!

Too many of us still have that hourly mindset. The advent of technology which allows us to perform work at 20% of the time it took 30 years ago is the consumer's windfall not ours. We wonder why young people shy away from our "profession".

Hack

foggyidea, post: 453581, member: 155 wrote: I disagree that the price should be based on the value to the client. Tthe price should be based on the value of you providing the service the client is requesting.

Either way, can we agree that it shouldn't be based solely on our cost to provide the service? How many other professionals base their fees on whether they work out of a home office or not?

And how do you explain how the value of said services keep going up every year? Is it from inflation or greed? We are tasked as protectors of the public and our clients as well as growing our companies. Not trying to ruffle feathers. Just trying to find the balance.
I estimate how long it will take to do the work and multiply that by my hourly rate to get most of my bid numbers. I believe that to be fair.....to my clients. I am not one that looks at what other surveyors are changing to know what I should be charging. I take care of my clients and they take care of me. My loyalty falls with those who are loyalty to me.....my clients. I've never tried to underbid a competitor (knowingly) and I never will. Just saying.