How do you bid a Topographic Survey?

voidintheabyss, post: 416909, member: 11972 wrote: The company I work for does Topographic Surveys. We do existing schools, and empty/wooded tracts.

For the empty/wooded tracts, our RPLS (he determines the the time it will take to complete the field work) is either right on the money or gives us a day or two more than we need.

For the schools, he is frequently off by several days on the short side. In these situations, it is always our fault because he is the boss. He doesn't tell us how he generates the bids, and nobody has the balls to ask him how he arrives at his expected time in the field to complete.

I'm trying to find my balls so I can ask him. I figure that there are two possibilities. One, his methodology is flawed. Two, all of our crews suck. Or, perhaps, it is a bit of both.

In my estimation, the only thing I can control is my work ethic and effort. If my crew is killing it and still not meeting deadlines, then something is wrong.

I'd like to have this conversation with him because I don't want the company I work for to lose money because of blown budgets, and because maybe there are things he knows that we don't know that could help us meet the benchmarks he sets for us.

I'd like to enter that conversation prepared with a basic understanding of how others in the profession approach bidding.

My question to you is, what methodologies do you use to generate a bid for a topographic survey?

As far as I know, he doesn't do a physical site walkthrough; he relies exclusively on Google Earth.

Any feedback is appreciated.
Thanks.

I use GE for recon all the time, but it's no substitute for a site walk. I've blown cost proposals more than a few times relying only on satellite photography. It all looks so simple from the sky!

There's a multitude of factors in a situation like you've described. There could be many answers. A few come to my mind from when I was on both sides of what you describe.

1. Are all these school jobs for the same A&E firm? If so, it might be them that is beating up the PLS over pricing. Other jobs seem to go well, why just the schools? There's a good chance of a common denominator somewhere.

2. Something that I believe prevalent is not really telling the field crews the truth about the amount of time the job really has in it. The real quote might have an allowance for seven field crew days and the crew gets told they only have five. Evidence of this might be always getting yelled at for running over time, but nobody seems to get in trouble for it. Trust me, if someone (PLS, crew, or both) continually run at a fiscal deficit, stuff gets rectified quick.

3. Some people just like to ride the field personnel. If you and your crew are staying busy, working efficiently and productively as you have been instructed, it's somebody else's problem, not yours. If the PLS that is riding your butt has a boss, maybe telling him your PLS is underestimating things too often might change things up. It could also cause you some heartache. But I did it when I was the one getting leaned on...and I've lived to old age.

How most people put estimates together is from personal experience with similar jobs and site conditions with profit and other considerations added. If you keep missing the mark ask Mr. Smarty-pants to come out in the field and show you how to do it quicker. 😉

voidintheabyss, post: 416909, member: 11972 wrote: My question to you is, what methodologies do you use to generate a bid for a topographic survey?

Once upon a time I worked for an outfit that did a lot of road improvement design work for local cities. We were doing the same sort of surveys over and over. Sometimes were under budget, sometimes we took a bath.

Like you, I asked the survey managers (there were 2 of them) how the estimates were being arrived at. The answers I got came mostly in grunts, clicks and pops. Monkey chatter. There was no methodology. They were pulling numbers out of their rear ends, more or less. Often they were taking whatever the engineering department was willing to allow out of their budget. I was assured that there were too many variables to do it any other way.

I got a hold on accounting reports on several of these jobs and split out the totals for the control and topo phases. It didn't take long to prove that the cost to topo per lineal foot of roadway fell within about a +/-20% range in every case. And in each case you could have identified in advance the reasons that one job ran higher and another lower.

As we did new jobs of the same sort kept adding them to my spreadsheet and they kept coming in the same range. Eventually the managers at least paid enough attention to it to us it as a BS detector. I also came to notice that there was also a correlation between the final cost and the number of topo shots that were taken.

So you should be able to look at the costs of the surveys of several of these schools and make a pretty good guess at what the next one is going to cost. Maybe not what it should cost, but what it will.

To answer your question - generally for a topo estimate you figure out how much area you have and figure out how many shots that will take at a 25' or 50' or whatever interval. Then maybe double that for buildings, utilities, pavement edges, & other details. Or try to estimate that in greater detail. Anyway, you come up with an estimate of how many topo shots its going to take and how many control points you are going to need.

Figure you can get about 350-400 shots per day, and about an hour extra for each control point. Add an hour a day for the PC to download data, hand in notes, debrief, etc. For every hour of field crew time figure and hour of office tech time for mapping . And for every 8 hours of tech time allow an hour of supervision time for the PLS (even if the PLS and the mapping tech are the same person). Adjust these ratios as experience shows is necessary, but these have worked for me.

I routinely use google to estimate my jobs. What a world we love in. If I miss its on me. If I overestimate my guys did a great job. Blaming anyone else is not my style. But, everyone is different.

Experience is what makes number right. Bidding jobs is dynamic. Field crews are expected to do a days work, and the most experienced guy will always get more done than the new guy. Make the Estimate and bump it up 25%. You don't state how much he comes under/over on the cad/calc side. Hard to add 2 days of field and not expect the drafting to take longer.

So say your PLS is hammering you. Ask to meet him before work and tell him you're interested in the management side of the business. On big jobs, you would like an oppportunity to provide input on the field side of things. ask for 30 mins to review, think about previous jobs you have done at the same size and scope, add 25% and say this job is 7 days. You may hit or miss. Be humble when you crush it and never blame google earth when you miss. Always think about doing it better next time.

A caveat. If you're underbiding school topos and landing long term prevailing wage construction layout jobs, well, thank your boss for getting the job in the first place. 65 an hour for crew chiefs around here. 62 for IO. Keeps everyone happy.

Being a sole operator with an offsider I do have (obviously) total control over the outcome in regards to time taken and costs. That said I can comment on some aspects.
Re costs. I've done enough now to have an idea of work involved. But also ask lots questions in terms of expected outcomes.
Aerial imagery useful, but nothing beats local knowledge.
Streets and roads require additional time to fend off traffic and curious locals. Latter if known to you can be worse offenders, time wise,
Unknowns as encountered are an obvious one and they need to be accounted for and if lengthy need explaining right off to overcome embarrassing explanations later.
Certainly area and type of topography influence. Again build up times from past jobs in estimates.

Not sure what your school surveys involve.
I've done several over the years for rebuilds, additions, upgrades to grounds etc.
They present some challenges not found elsewhere.
Do you feel comfortable asking the boss what he envisages the work entails and perceived obstacles impeding a clean in and out again survey?
Do you work only school hours?
Are you competing with over zealous students that are just plain curious or at worse intent on disruption?
Does he have an appreciation of the area of interest and how one accomplishes the tasks?
I've had to survey through windows and corridors with different levels which are typical of such buildings that have seen progressive renovations over the years.
The boss should be capable of interacting with his crew.
Suggest there maybe savings to be had even if it's the embarrassing over run of time =cost, in having such a discussion.
I'd suggest coming at this from a 'lower position' to not appear superior. If he feels in control as opposed to being questioned then there's some hope of a breakthrough.
However if all attempts to engage fail, I can only suggest you knuckle down, do the job the best way you know and be ready to explain any perceived over runs.
It's then you may have a second chance to engage "for next time we do such and such......"
Then if resistance is still met you have 2 options.
Stay or find another work place.

I don't envy you or others in these situations.
You're the means to the end that equates to the success or otherwise of a job well done.
A good boss will appreciate that. The other, well we won't go down that path.

All the best with your choices.

Years back I ran the survey department with 6 field crews at a large engineering firm. More often that not, the survey budget was always cut by the engineers. We almost did it at a lost leader just to get the design work.

Now that I'm a one man firm, I don't mess with budgets. I've been fortunate to develop a client base that doesn't really worry about the small front end cost of a survey. Honestly most of my costs are just developed on what I think the value of the survey is for that project. I don't even figure at the end of the job if there was profit. Why spend dollars chasing nickels? And some money is always better than no money.

For a 1 man firm this works, but in a larger firm with overhead, you best be doing a site visit prior to developing a budget. I always liked to involve the crew chiefs in developing a budget.

Just a hint...not many bosses like having an employee question them.

Just keep doing good work and hopefully it won't go unnoticed.

Long time reader, first time poster. Mainly because as a newer manager on my own now, I think of this often.

Mark Mayer's method is very similar to mine which is a combination of several other OK surveyors and some Nebraska guys. It seems pretty universal to me. Topo's are 1 day of field/CAD to 1 hour of PLS review. You really should be able to knock out a lot of variables with a large data set (which it seems you have). Control and BM loops should always be at a minimum so much time. Expectations of points per day and points per field or busy areas can be averaged. Taping buildings per and measuring util inverts can be averaged and priced per unit. Canopy and other conditions for equipment used can be considered from aerials and around here it's only a few months old. I honestly believe that topo is easier to bid than boundary or staking. A lot more norms than exceptions.

If you focus on the "norms" times/data/scope than you might be able to get an idea which of his expectations are or are not being met and focus on those items rather than to say he needs to teach you everything you do over again... NOT good. For example, we had a new party chief shooting every 1-2" tree in the fence line on a job, they had to be told a minimum tree size to bother with a shot, Another newer party chief traversing to hit every single interior building corner on schools (maybe so they wouldn't have to still tape them) that are probably a lot like yours. Guys don't always learn the best ways to do things and we don't have 4-5 man crews anymore to help that learning process.

All that being said, be really thoughtful about how you communicate this. You probably know your boss and know what and when is a good time to bring it up. I worked with a guy that would never ask for a raise until he brought it up while he was being criticized...bad idea. I got to say that it's fine to think like Paden does above but don't have that attitude when you talk to your boss. Reflect the way that timdoggy does above. Thank your boss for winning the work and tell him you want to help make it better and more profitable. If he is a good businessman he will appreciate it and will take well thought out and properly conveyed feedback.

If you are overworked, underpaid, generally frustrated, well, theres two silutions.
1.) work faster.
2.) up your prices.
If you do both, you might be able to buy a new studebaker!
🙂

voidintheabyss, post: 416909, member: 11972 wrote: The company I work for does Topographic Surveys. We do existing schools, and empty/wooded tracts.

For the empty/wooded tracts, our RPLS (he determines the the time it will take to complete the field work) is either right on the money or gives us a day or two more than we need.

For the schools, he is frequently off by several days on the short side. In these situations, it is always our fault because he is the boss. He doesn't tell us how he generates the bids, and nobody has the balls to ask him how he arrives at his expected time in the field to complete.

I'm trying to find my balls so I can ask him. I figure that there are two possibilities. One, his methodology is flawed. Two, all of our crews suck. Or, perhaps, it is a bit of both.

In my estimation, the only thing I can control is my work ethic and effort. If my crew is killing it and still not meeting deadlines, then something is wrong.

I'd like to have this conversation with him because I don't want the company I work for to lose money because of blown budgets, and because maybe there are things he knows that we don't know that could help us meet the benchmarks he sets for us.

I'd like to enter that conversation prepared with a basic understanding of how others in the profession approach bidding.

My question to you is, what methodologies do you use to generate a bid for a topographic survey?

As far as I know, he doesn't do a physical site walkthrough; he relies exclusively on Google Earth.

Any feedback is appreciated.
Thanks.
Estimating typical topo surveys wooded or not, is usually a walk in the park unless there are unknown physical features that end up being time consuming to detail.
Estimating schools, commercial properties and other usually densely developed sites is not as easy, especially where allot of utilities are involved.
The key to it is first going from your own field experience and then having a good grip on what your crews are capable of completing in a day. Some people are good at estimating, but, like anything else, some people are not so good in that particular area.
When it comes to schools and similar facilities there really is no hard fast rule to rely on as every site is unique, there may be people in the way, deliveries being made and other unanticipated events that happen in the field add to that that each site may have different specific requirements and levels of detail.
Estimating is basically like rolling the dice. If you don't hit the numbers on the vast majority of the jobs then the estimator needs to look at what he/she is doing for that to happen. I have been involved with projects where Engineering has included a survey budget without consulting me as to what my costs or timeline would include to complete the work and have never been shy about advising them and those above them that the budget would be exceeded, sometimes drastically, du to my lack of input.
It sounds to me like this is really troubling you, as it should be, especially when you have as far as tracking the data to examine trends.
My advice would be to talk with your LS and ask him how he approaches his estimating. Present the information that you have assembled and discuss what could possibly be leading to the overruns. Perhaps ask him for the opportunity to estimate a job that he is looking at to see where both of your numbers come in at and discuss the reasoning behind the differences. Any manager should be happy to entertain those conversations, they are good for moral, a good chance to mentor somebody who is truly interested and you might actually open his eyes to something that he has been overlooking.
When I took my current position I reached out to several outstanding PCs and office Techs that I have worked with over the years and brought them on staff.
When I am estimating a job that is beyond the standard I will put my numbers together and ask them to take a look at it to see what they think. If my numbers are higher than theirs I keep them. When theirs are higher due to something they said or felt, I generally go back and adjust my numbers accordingly.
The one thing I NEVER do is ride somebody if they are not hitting the numbers. If they don't hit the ball park performance level of the other crews I will assess why they aren't and try to fix that problem, unless, as is sometimes the rare occasion, the crews are just lazy and burning time because they don't feel like working.

[USER=12543]@Aaron K Burns[/USER]

Welcome to the fun and excitement that is otherwise described as posting here on this fantastic site.

You have done an excellent job in your very first post of providing wise, experienced information to many who can benefit from it. Thank you.

voidintheabyss, post: 416909, member: 11972 wrote: I figure that there are two possibilities. One, his methodology is flawed. Two, all of our crews suck. Or, perhaps, it is a bit of both.

Even if the crews do suck, they are still the folks doing the work and should be the basis for the bid.

If you can get your manager out into the field with you there may be an opportunity for mutual learning, if they will not come into the field that should tell you about the level of input and interaction they are willing to put into the relationship.

The current scourge and probably the future downfall of our profession is the "bid"

Professionals don't get work based on whomever can get by the cheapest (low-bid), that is for retail sales, trades, and technicians.

Maybe an idea, if your engineering is in-house, would it be feasible to gather just enough pertinent data to get the engineers up and running in the design process, and then if need be, return to the site for an updated list of features needed to complete the project ??

You may already be doing that. There may be some wriggle room in finding an efficiency there.

Brian Allen, post: 416973, member: 1333 wrote: The current scourge and probably the future downfall of our profession is the "bid"

Professionals don't get work based on whomever can get by the cheapest (low-bid), that is for retail sales, trades, and technicians.

How else would something like a topographic survey of a school get purchased? I am not in favor of legislation mandating the lowest bid be taken but certainly price should be considered.

For our company, I use a spreadsheet and enter in the information. For topo, I go by the acreage with different types of property be it residential, open, wooded, retail, industrial, etc... as well as how many feet of ditches and roads. It does the math and lets me know the price as well as the hours for both field and office. The results are a basic and idea and I have a spot I can enter in hourly adjustments when necessary. I do the same thing for boundaries but base it on the number of boundary lines, total length of boundary, # of pins to look for, # of setups and so and so forth. In a perfect world the number crunchers would give me a recap of how the proposed hours lined up with reality, but it rarely happens that way.

Jim Frame, post: 416914, member: 10 wrote: I use GE for recon all the time, but it's no substitute for a site walk. I've blown cost proposals more than a few times relying only on satellite photography. It all looks so simple from the sky!

And flat, with grass neatly trimmed to 2" length. And no wasps. My rule is allow for the best productivity, then double it for reality.

voidintheabyss, post: 416909, member: 11972 wrote: The company I work for does Topographic Surveys. We do existing schools, and empty/wooded tracts.

For the empty/wooded tracts, our RPLS (he determines the the time it will take to complete the field work) is either right on the money or gives us a day or two more than we need.

For the schools, he is frequently off by several days on the short side. In these situations, it is always our fault because he is the boss. He doesn't tell us how he generates the bids, and nobody has the balls to ask him how he arrives at his expected time in the field to complete.

I'm trying to find my balls so I can ask him. I figure that there are two possibilities. One, his methodology is flawed. Two, all of our crews suck. Or, perhaps, it is a bit of both.

In my estimation, the only thing I can control is my work ethic and effort. If my crew is killing it and still not meeting deadlines, then something is wrong.

I'd like to have this conversation with him because I don't want the company I work for to lose money because of blown budgets, and because maybe there are things he knows that we don't know that could help us meet the benchmarks he sets for us.

I'd like to enter that conversation prepared with a basic understanding of how others in the profession approach bidding.

My question to you is, what methodologies do you use to generate a bid for a topographic survey?

As far as I know, he doesn't do a physical site walkthrough; he relies exclusively on Google Earth.

Any feedback is appreciated.
Thanks.

look at the Big Picture... year end profit (or longer term).
keeping the doors open, and staff occupied, counts. (he may even have a line item for his own bonus, if profitable)

Schools are probably competitive bid, but the others no so much.

I would feel free to discuss his philosophy with him. He must be somewhat successful, ask for his wisdom.
If he asks for your thoughts, then you can share.

Brian Allen, post: 416973, member: 1333 wrote: The current scourge and probably the future downfall of our profession is the "bid"

Professionals don't get work based on whomever can get by the cheapest (low-bid), that is for retail sales, trades, and technicians.[/QUOT
Unfortunately that's the path the profession has lets itsself be lead down for many years. It's nothing new. The general public views us us has a low bidders and we have let them and give them the reasons to for a long time.