Peter Ehlert, post: 417025, member: 60 wrote: look at the Big Picture... year end profit (or longer term).
keeping the doors open, and staff occupied, counts. (he may even have a line item for his own bonus, if profitable)Schools are probably competitive bid, but the others no so much.
I would feel free to discuss his philosophy with him. He must be somewhat successful, ask for his wisdom.
If he asks for your thoughts, then you can share.
Good point. Anything to do with a school or government entity is bid out. Which is understandable, it's not their money it's the tax payers that is being spent. I'm good with that as long as qualifications are considered
The disbursement of public money is all the more reason for Qualification Based Selection, as it's called.
voidintheabyss, post: 416909, member: 11972 wrote: The company I work for does Topographic Surveys. We do existing schools, and empty/wooded tracts.
For the empty/wooded tracts, our RPLS (he determines the the time it will take to complete the field work) is either right on the money or gives us a day or two more than we need.
For the schools, he is frequently off by several days on the short side. In these situations, it is always our fault because he is the boss. He doesn't tell us how he generates the bids, and nobody has the balls to ask him how he arrives at his expected time in the field to complete.
I'm trying to find my balls so I can ask him. I figure that there are two possibilities. One, his methodology is flawed. Two, all of our crews suck. Or, perhaps, it is a bit of both.
In my estimation, the only thing I can control is my work ethic and effort. If my crew is killing it and still not meeting deadlines, then something is wrong.
I'd like to have this conversation with him because I don't want the company I work for to lose money because of blown budgets, and because maybe there are things he knows that we don't know that could help us meet the benchmarks he sets for us.
I'd like to enter that conversation prepared with a basic understanding of how others in the profession approach bidding.
My question to you is, what methodologies do you use to generate a bid for a topographic survey?
As far as I know, he doesn't do a physical site walkthrough; he relies exclusively on Google Earth.
Any feedback is appreciated.
Thanks.
We bid these and construction layout projects time & materials with a Not To Exceed price. I usually give them a range to assure i will not exceed a certain amount.
If it looks like we will, i contact my client and advise them of the current invoice total and ask if they would like us to proceed working? Making then aware there is a possibility it could exceed my bid.
Communication is key. Your client will respect you for that.
Rachel
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Rachel Collins Basco, post: 417058, member: 10399 wrote: We bid these and construction layout projects time & materials with a Not To Exceed price. ..If it looks like we will, i contact my client ....and ask if they would like us to proceed working?
That's not really how an NTE works in my neck of the woods. How do your clients react to this call?
I dislike NTE's. I make wages, or I get screwed. I find that when people say NTE they really mean Fixed Fee. At least with FF there is a chance to make an extra profit. If I'm truly going NTE the figure has to be well above my wildest expectations. I find myself explaining the difference between NTE and FF to people who should know it quite a lot.
TXSurveyor, post: 417038, member: 6719 wrote: Anything to do with a school or government entity is bid out. Which is understandable, it's not their money it's the tax payers that is being spent.
All the states I'm licensed in, and I believe every other state as well, have laws which require that a provider of professional services to public entities be chosen based on qualifications first, and then a fee agreement reached with that provider. If no agreement can be reached then the next most qualified provider may be tried. And so on. If your school jobs are literally being "bid" it is probably illegal. .
Usually a public entity periodically puts out a "Request for Qualifications" (RFQ) and makes up a roster of maybe a half dozen of the most qualified providers and gets them under contract. When they have a job they select a company from the list - usually on a rotating basis - and ask for a price and scope proposal. If the price and scope are agreed to they issue a work order.
The only problem is that many of those making the decision are incapable of establishing levels of quality. To them every consulting firm is pretty much identical with any other consulting firm. Thus, low bid is selected unless there is some extremely clear reason to reject a given firm. They may go through the motions but there is no watchdog entity forcing them to make sure they have selected the highest quality firm.
voidintheabyss, post: 416909, member: 11972 wrote: The company I work for does Topographic Surveys. We do existing schools, and empty/wooded tracts.
For the empty/wooded tracts, our RPLS (he determines the the time it will take to complete the field work) is either right on the money or gives us a day or two more than we need.
For the schools, he is frequently off by several days on the short side. In these situations, it is always our fault because he is the boss. He doesn't tell us how he generates the bids, and nobody has the balls to ask him how he arrives at his expected time in the field to complete.
I'm trying to find my balls so I can ask him. I figure that there are two possibilities. One, his methodology is flawed. Two, all of our crews suck. Or, perhaps, it is a bit of both.
In my estimation, the only thing I can control is my work ethic and effort. If my crew is killing it and still not meeting deadlines, then something is wrong.
I'd like to have this conversation with him because I don't want the company I work for to lose money because of blown budgets, and because maybe there are things he knows that we don't know that could help us meet the benchmarks he sets for us.
I'd like to enter that conversation prepared with a basic understanding of how others in the profession approach bidding.
My question to you is, what methodologies do you use to generate a bid for a topographic survey?
As far as I know, he doesn't do a physical site walkthrough; he relies exclusively on Google Earth.
Any feedback is appreciated.
Thanks.
Well, first of all, I don't "bid" on anything - I am a Professional, not a Tradesman.. If I am aware that the client is shopping for the lowest price I will not provide a "Proposal." When I do prepare a "Proposal" it is based on 40+ years of experience and a discussion with the crew chief I will place on the job, and I normally plan on a close to worst case scenario, because if I don't, I won't make any money when it all goes to *ell, which it usually does.
I would add that there may be a difference in how he is expecting the work to be done. Topo is topo. As-builts are as-builts. When you merge the two, that's when it get's tricky. For something like you'd describe, I would first arrive at a number for the as-built. Then, depending on the size, I would estimate the extra work to pick up the ground shots between features. If you can map the features with good x,y,z, then most of the topo is complete from the as-built. If you try to do it in a standard topo grid formation, then you'll always lose money because you're double, triple, and quadruple walking the project.
If this is the difference, then he may need to coach the field crew up. If not, then I have nothing else to add. FWIW, I like to add, on a project like what you describe, an additional 20% of hours for the extra ground shots and interior walkways. I normally am spot on or under. I also tend to do these jobs myself because of the amount of detail necessary.
Treat your next one like a Texas Two-Step. Do all of the improvements, then get the ground shots after, just keep up with all of the HI's and HR's along the way. It keeps you from being mentally overloaded and you become more efficient in the capturing of data.
In almost all of my topographic survey estimates I provide the necessary specifics to the Party chief that will be overseeing the field work and let him come up with the # or hrs it takes to get the job done. When I first started doing this years ago, they were typically always 'under' my estimate. As they have come to understand things we are almost always in-sync now and will always be +/- 10%. I find this method gives the party chief ownership of the project and has resulted in a better understanding all around.
And 100% agree, i do not provide Bids and if they are simply shopping prices then they have called the wrong firm.
Mark Mayer, post: 417073, member: 424 wrote: That's not really how an NTE works in my neck of the woods. How do your clients react to this call?
I dislike NTE's. I make wages, or I get screwed. I find that when people say NTE they really mean Fixed Fee. At least with FF there is a chance to make an extra profit. If I'm truly going NTE the figure has to be well above my wildest expectations. I find myself explaining the difference between NTE and FF to people who should know it quite a lot.
It actually works very well. I make sure to
Explain the difference in NTE & FF to my client.
Let me correct myself, NTE bids are done on VERY large projects such as large boundary surveys, construction layouts or large on-going topo's. we have always lost profit by bidding FF on those. So, that's why we have adopted this procedure.
Once the research is done & data provided, I can estimate the days & hours on site along with calculations & drafting, if necessary, and provide a NTE range along with our hourly Rates & a contract to sign. It's done well for us for years.
In my neck of the woods, in all due respect, FF's are cutthroat. People are always shopping for the lowest price as we all know & it's very exhausting handling people like that on a daily basis!
Mark Mayer, post: 417076, member: 424 wrote: All the states I'm licensed in, and I believe every other state as well, have laws which require that a provider of professional services to public entities be chosen based on qualifications first, and then a fee agreement reached with that provider. If no agreement can be reached then the next most qualified provider may be tried. And so on. If your school jobs are literally being "bid" it is probably illegal. .
Usually a public entity periodically puts out a "Request for Qualifications" (RFQ) and makes up a roster of maybe a half dozen of the most qualified providers and gets them under contract. When they have a job they select a company from the list - usually on a rotating basis - and ask for a price and scope proposal. If the price and scope are agreed to they issue a work order.
Yes. I believe this is called the Brooks Act.
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Rachel Collins Basco, post: 417259, member: 10399 wrote: It actually works very well. I make sure to ...Explain the difference in NTE & FF to my client...
That's fine. But it's not really an NTE if you can exceed it, is it? It's an hourly contract with a budgetary figure.
FF's work fine if you have a well defined scope and deliverable, which is often hard to nail down on large projects.
Mark Mayer, post: 417268, member: 424 wrote: That's fine. But it's not really an NTE if you can exceed it, is it? It's an hourly contract with a budgetary figure.
FF's work fine if you have a well defined scope and deliverable, which is often hard to nail down on large projects.
All of my contracts for NTE stipulate a change of scope of the project changes the price. Changes of scope are enumerated in the contract. When it happens (rarely) the project is stopped and a new NTE is given.
I'll do NTE is the client insists, but it's very rare for me come in under the NTE figure. More often I go over it, in which case I show the breakdown by task item and put an NTE credit just above the bottom line. This lets the client know that he's getting what he paid for and then some, and also puts him on notice that a similar job in the future is likely to cost more.
I do about 95% of my projects as fixed fee proposals. I sit down, review the Google Earth, nearby projects, the Registry of Deeds for plans of locus or abutting, and then I arrive at the "how long will it take." I use $200/hr now, so I arrive at a price. Then I ask myself, "Is it worth it to me to do it for that price?" Frequently I say no and adjust the price upward until it's worth it to me. I do my pricing by "value" pricing, that is, "HOW MUCH IS IT WORTH, TO ME, TO DO THAT PROJECT!"
Mark Mayer, post: 417076, member: 424 wrote: All the states I'm licensed in, and I believe every other state as well, have laws which require that a provider of professional services to public entities be chosen based on qualifications first, and then a fee agreement reached with that provider. If no agreement can be reached then the next most qualified provider may be tried. And so on.
These are the requirements in Alabama for all surveys, not just public entities. it is a BOL requirement. Because it is difficult to comply with, the ASPLS is working to have legislation passed to exempt surveyors from QBS.
Not to exceed contracts suck! You can only lose, never win. But I know that many government agencies insist upon them. When possible, I like setting up a FF contract with notes explaining that additional work may be required if you run into problems. This gives you an out and operates the opposite of a NTE, instead it is a not to be below. BTW, I've also had horrible luck bidding school jobs, I don't know what it is about them, they look so easy from the aerial.
I used to base my fee on what it would cost the client for photogrammetry + setting panels. I would charge the same, but deliver in a couple of days and was a hero. Now I mostly go with a gut feeling of what it is worth, and at the end of the day if I'm happy with the fee vs effort, then I'm good.
roger_LS, post: 417412, member: 11550 wrote: Not to exceed contracts suck! You can only lose, never win. But I know that many government agencies insist upon them. When possible, I like setting up a FF contract with notes explaining that additional work may be required if you run into problems. This gives you an out and operates the opposite of a NTE, instead it is a not to be below. BTW, I've also had horrible luck bidding school jobs, I don't know what it is about them, they look so easy from the aerial.
Lots of buildings, lots of detail, no one knows where the pipes run, lots of control points, line of sight issues. The engineer always whines about the product and all the little details they didn't tell you they need.
A year and a half ago I did a 77 acre camp, not the whole thing, just the 9 acres of buildings and paved areas, and 15 acres of open field. That took a while. Now I'm doing the boundary...a lot more fun and interesting. The saving grace of the project is we stay in Chico which means dinner and beer at the Sierra Nevada Tap Room!
Dave, I'm on my way there next weekend. Can't wait to go to Sierra Nevada!