Talking to a coworker this beautiful Friday morning, and it came up that there was a "gap" between PL's on the local GIS. We talked about all the projects we get from technical, non-professional, folks looking at GIS and then realizing the PL isn't where they thought. And then we come in and show them where it is, and low an behold the GIS was off 10 feet. Anyway...
Got me thinking, if a surveyor finds a legitimate gap, with significant size, or a tract with no current ownership, would it be ethical for the surveyor to file quiet title?
For instance, a developers tract from a 100 year old subdivision that was never conveyed, or a left over tract from an aliquot part that the owner died and never sold off. Basically anything that a person could file quiet title on. This is 100% hypothetical, just something my brain decided to think about this morning while doing some drafting....
I have thought of that. Even went so far as to think:
IF I shave a couple of feet off each survey, for 25 yrs, then pile them all up in one place, I could retire!!!
HA HA HA!
OK, back to your OP
IF it truly is a gap.
IF it truly has no taxpayer
Then, you would possibly have to pay back taxes.
But, there are heirs.
N
This would be considered a legal problem, so I won't offer an official opinion. But, if there are no heirs, the real property would probably go to the State. Your quiet title would IMHO, turn into a law suite that you probable wouldn't win. At least that is my thinking, for what it is worth.
After 36 years of Surveying (most of it boundary) I have yet to see a 'legitimate gap'. There are places where the location of a boundary or the ownership of a parcel cannot be resolved by routine survey or title work. Most of those cases can be resolved by the owners after a decent fact pattern analysis. If they don't want to go that route I can safely predict the winner 100% of the time. That would be the Attorneys. I am not aware of any case where the Courts have said nobody owns it.
I'm not certain if you're joking about the quiet title. As someone far removed from even the most scant color of title I doubt you would succeed. The Courts would also frown on your use of knowledge gained in your Professional duties to obtain something that isn't yours. The Board would probably want to talk about that as well.
I would like you to know I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I'm simply making the point that the Surveyors concept of 'gap' is a fallacy. While there are times the math portion of the record does not create a complete picture, the forms of evidence available rarely do anything less. When we reach the end of our knowledge base and authority it's time to pause. At that point we must remember the term 'gap' is misleading and hazardous. It gives the appearance of some abandoned or discarded treasure. The most selfish parts of the adjacent owners are aroused and the process becomes adversarial nearly every time.
All of us have heard the standard stuff trotted out by crusty guys in the office. Here's one of my favorites- "If there is peace in the neighborhood when I get there, let there be peace when I leave".
I don't advocate kicking the can down the road by any means. My point is to encourage Professional Boundary Surveyors to equip ourselves to solve problems. Rather than send folks to the Courts, assist them in solving their issues with finality. Again, not jabbing at you at all. Just happened to touch one of those things I am passionate about...
Hijack - Gap
I was going to post one.
I was going through research last night. I am surveying the first two conveyances out of a parcel. 3, 4 and 5 were surveyed a couple years ago by a less than reputable surveyor. They most certainly came out sequentially, yet this other surveyor apportioned. The apportionment results in 0.24' more for each lot. As my lots were 1 and 2, I could hold the record distances and show the 0.48' gap between 2 and 3.
I think I will show the gap and reference the cause why there is a gap. I do not think I will even call him, I think I will send him a copy of my plan and ask him for the deed with the simultaneous conveyance.
Of should I just shift it all and ignore the gap?
Hijack - Gap
There is no gap. Either his horrid survey set things in motion that have ripened to Title or the survey work can be corrected. The best solution is for the owners to decide.
As for the other 'surveyor', follow the process defined by your Board. Let him step up and fund the fix or go see the Board. We don't learn without being taught.
> Talking to a coworker this beautiful Friday morning, and it came up that there was a "gap" between PL's on the local GIS. We talked about all the projects we get from technical, non-professional, folks looking at GIS and then realizing the PL isn't where they thought. And then we come in and show them where it is, and low an behold the GIS was off 10 feet. Anyway...
>
> Got me thinking, if a surveyor finds a legitimate gap, with significant size, or a tract with no current ownership, would it be ethical for the surveyor to file quiet title?
>
> For instance, a developers tract from a 100 year old subdivision that was never conveyed, or a left over tract from an aliquot part that the owner died and never sold off. Basically anything that a person could file quiet title on. This is 100% hypothetical, just something my brain decided to think about this morning while doing some drafting....
land with no owner? there IS a owner, find the owner!
never sold, leftover parcels are simply parcels that never go sold. maybe forgotten about, but still real and still owned by someone.
gaps and overlaps only exist on paper...
and doesn't a quiet title action require some color of title? you can't just pick it out of thin air.
:good:
I know of a surveyor who discovered a gap between patents. As the state courts here have determined that a valid patent from the land office of the colony or state is a prerequisite for title, none of the adjoiners could claim to have title by possession. The surveyor filed the application for a writ of survey from the state land office (still in existence as a part of the state archives), surveyed the property, and then applied for a patent. I think it ended up being big enough to subdivide into four lots which he subsequently sold.
Hijack - Gap
Has there been any reliance?
> I know of a surveyor who discovered a gap between patents. As the state courts here have determined that a valid patent from the land office of the colony or state is a prerequisite for title, none of the adjoiners could claim to have title by possession. The surveyor filed the application for a writ of survey from the state land office (still in existence as a part of the state archives), surveyed the property, and then applied for a patent. I think it ended up being big enough to subdivide into four lots which he subsequently sold.
A sweet story.
Curiosity killed the cat...
I heard of a surveyor, here in Washington, whose parents owned an undeveloped plat in Minnesota. As an heir to their property, he inherited everything they owned.
He gets a call from an attorney one day; wants him to sign over any interest he may have in the plat; just a technicality; nothing to worry about and was being real arrogant about it.
So the surveyor looks into it and finds out his parents retained ownership of the streets. The lawyer was working for a big development firm, building a big mall on the site. He sold the roads to them for $1 million...:-D
Hijack - Gap
Nah, it's all woods.
I will prepare the plan, prepare a note describing how I held the sequential conveyance and the jr/sr rights, then send him a copy before it is recorded.
I may also point out that one of his lots has a record distance of 9.5 rods where he held 10 rods plus the full apportionment. That was either the 3rd or 4th conveyance of 5 so it too should be held at the record distance. Conveniently, the 5th lot is at an end and has no described width. They get all these little bits and pieces.
In the past I had a more formal issue with several of his surveys. 0.5' gap is much better than a 70' overlap. I called on that one and I sent a note. He failed to respond to either. I informed the design engineer and the other surveyor posted an affidavit stating that even the planning board knew he had the correct boundaries, otherwise they would not have endorsed his plan... *face palm*
> I have yet to see a 'legitimate gap'. There are places where the location of a boundary or the ownership of a parcel cannot be resolved by routine survey or title work. Most of those cases can be resolved by the owners after a decent fact pattern analysis. If they don't want to go that route I can safely predict the winner 100% of the time. That would be the Attorneys.
Amen.
> I know of a surveyor who discovered a gap between patents. As the state courts here have determined that a valid patent from the land office of the colony or state is a prerequisite for title, none of the adjoiners could claim to have title by possession. The surveyor filed the application for a writ of survey from the state land office (still in existence as a part of the state archives), surveyed the property, and then applied for a patent. I think it ended up being big enough to subdivide into four lots which he subsequently sold.
The key here being that there was no gap in ownership. The govt owned it.
> I know of a surveyor who discovered a gap between patents. As the state courts here have determined that a valid patent from the land office of the colony or state is a prerequisite for title, none of the adjoiners could claim to have title by possession. The surveyor filed the application for a writ of survey from the state land office (still in existence as a part of the state archives), surveyed the property, and then applied for a patent. I think it ended up being big enough to subdivide into four lots which he subsequently sold.
As the OP, I was not trying to be crooked in any way. And I maybe should not have used the term 'gap', other than that is what my coworker and I were talking about.
I was more talking about a tract with unknown ownership as mentioned above. It just got me thinking about one of those things that I would never do, but curious what some thought. Curiosity killed the OP.
Oh and I now see that I spelled it wrong in my OP. Whoops. I hate it when I do that.
I totally agree with you Peter.
It may take some good detective work from someone like a genealogist to find heirs, but all property has an owner.
My wife is an amateur genealogist who found some heirs for a local title co.
Curiosity killed the cat...
Have not noted the doctrine of gaps and gores mentioned.
Basically states that unless specifically reserved, a seller of a property intends to convey to his boundary, wherever that may be.
Is this germane to the conversation?
Curiosity killed the cat...
I'm working on a property now that was originally in a single ownership, about 240 acres. Around the '30s, the north half was sold. The southerly remainder was conveyed in the 70s or so with a metes and bounds description rather than the south half. Uuugh!
From the original description (north 50 chains to the DLC line) and the metes and bounds (north 24.70 chains), I suspect the boundaries of the two descriptions do not coincide. I'll find out shortly, but am starting planning for the event.
I found one ...
About 25 years ago I found a 620+ gap on a 60 acres parcel that was surveyed by a state "engineer"(I use that term loosely).
This guy used his state vehicle's distance computer to make measurements and screwed up what should've been about 1700 feet ... he reported 1100+ feet.
His description described a 30 acres parcel from owner a(east), to owner b(west). the buyer of the thirty acres took ownership as shown by the owner, but the owner also thought he was at the west owner's line ... he was not.
The property lay like this for over 7 years with the taxmap people marking that the sale of 30 acres meant he never had 50+ acres and no taxes were collected for the next 7 years ... also, the buyer of the 30 acres never occupied the remaining 23 acres.
The taxmap people wrote jokes and sketches all over the 23 unknown(?) acreage and made notations about the absolute rediculousness of the situation.
One day, while talking in taxmaps about errors, one person said ... "Oh, I got everyone beat", and showed me this 620+ parcel on a well paved state highway and I got the idea of trying to get this property.
I called the apparent owner to offer to buy a "quit-claim", to the property and in the conversation told him a claim on the residue would probably be pretty strong since the only other person who would have a good claim had no interest.
Long story short, he asked me to survey it and I found 23 acres of dry buildable lands ... the auditor also never billed back taxes(cause there was no tax bill and no PPN number, the property had to be re-made completely).
The surveyor who did this was fired by the state for, stealing from the state, became this county's(Trumbull), first Dem county engineer in years(in a heavy dem county), ended up in prison for stealing from the county(as a number of public officials have in this area), and the owner got a handsome profit for property he thought he never had.
I have had a few similar cases on county lines where a fence, not following the county line, marked occupation in the next county, where that county's auditor has no vehicle for collecting taxes ... that is, the property(land-locked in the second county) had no PPN number and it would take a petition to make property which was un-attached in the one county magically appear and be billed to a land-owner in another county.