Note sure what category is best - maybe we should have a category for "Complaints about architects." 🙂
I am a solo PLS/PE. I was hired by a new client to provide surveying and engineering support for a residential project where an existing old house is being moved to a new location on the same lot.
I prepared an "Existing Conditions Plan", showing boundaries, topo, etc. and provided a signed & sealed copies to my client, with a request for a sketch showing where he wanted the house to be moved so I can proceed with septic design, proposed plot plan, etc.
Client hired an architect to do the proposed layout. When I saw the preliminary layout a month or so ago, I was dismayed to see that the architect had taken my existing conditions plan, and had whited-out everything within the lot lines and replaced it with his proposed grades, house layout, etc, but had left everything else, including MY entire title block with the title changed to "Proposed (something)" but leaving my company name intact (he did remove my seal & signature though). He added his title blocked along the whole right side of the plan. No architect seal of course - architects NEVER sign anything.
I told my client that I wanted the architect to remove my title block from what is now HIS plan, as I thought it was misleading and implied that I had done the proposed plan. Client seemed to be appalled that the architect had done this, and told me he he would relay the message (I had no direct contact with the architect).
So earlier this week, while finalizing my septic system design plan, I hear from the architect that there are some minor grade changes, so I asked him to send me a sketch. Yesterday I received an email with the subject "submitted today" (presumably submitted to the Board of Appeals as this is a non-conforming lot). Attached was a PDF of the proposed site plan with (guess what?) - my entire title block again.
Now it is obvious (to me, at least) that I did not prepare the actual design - my plan was prepared (neatly!) in Autocad, and the the architects hens scratchings were obviously done by hand in pencil. But anyone casually looking at this plan will think that it was prepared by me. The architects own company name is parked unobtrusively in the upper right hand corner.
I don't think the consequences would be significant - it's just a small residential project and I don't think that anyone involved will be confused.
But this really bugs me. I was going to send an email to my client and the architect expressing my displeasure, but I though I would ask here for advice first.
The deed is done (ooh! a surveyor pun!) and I don't want to annoy my client excessively. If I let it go, this is probably the end of it. If I complain, I will probably piss everyone off. What would you do?
And do architects do this a lot? I've had so many architect-related problems...like the single family house I was asked to stake that didn't close by 9 feet.
Architects annoy me...
I believe I would contact the architect's board of licensure and file a complaint.
Good luck!
Complain to the architect, not the client.
Complain to him about the title block issue. If you think it causes confusion, notify the planning board of who did what.
Read the licensing rules for architects, and point out to him any violations, such as the need to identify and seal his work. If that is a requirement, don't take on any risk yourself by working from unsealed drawings.
Point out to him any impossibilities in his work, such as dimensions that don't close, or zoning/code violations in the design, and don't try to fix them for him.
If you don't get cooperation, then go to his board on any significant violations.
The architect could be trying to make it clear that they did not perform the boundary survey by leaving your logo. Removing your logo would not relieve you of any liability in that aspect.
I do agree that they should have talked to you though.
Your first mistake was trying to communicate with the architect thru a third party.
Yes, keep your client informed... relay the essence of your communication AFTER you have made contact and had a response.
Architects look at the world differently, and they work under different rules and regulations. They have a different role in projects, and they are needed for their expertise and skills. Accept that reality and move on.
I have both architects and engineers and surveyors as family members... and I know them well. Their point of view differs greatly, bot good/bad, just different.
> Client hired an architect to do the proposed layout. When I saw the preliminary layout a month or so ago, I was dismayed to see that the architect had taken my existing conditions plan, and had whited-out everything within the lot lines and replaced it with his proposed grades, house layout, etc, but had left everything else, including MY entire title block with the title changed to "Proposed (something)" but leaving my company name intact (he did remove my seal & signature though). He added his title blocked along the whole right side of the plan. No architect seal of course - architects NEVER sign anything.
>
As I understand this he took your original boundary and topo, but eliminated the topo? Applied his own grades/layout without half-toning your topo? What kind of nut is this?
He appears to be old school 'cause he is hand drawing everything. But those guys were the pioneers about underlying the topo. Or he is new and has no idea how to work software to scan and apply scale with transparency. Okay rant portion over.
First contact said Architect with professional mores to deter any knee jerk reactions (as I just demonstrated). Try to work together and arrive at a mutual agreement on how to provide a professional product to the client without engaging in unnecessary disagreements. How many times have I seen stuff like this happen when two entities refuse to communicate directly? Don't include your client. Keep them out of it. The less they see of this kind of rancor between disciplines the better for the both of you. My 2 cents.
Did he stamp the plan that was submitted to the board of appeals? Did he white out your stamp and submit an unstamped plan? Why did they accept a plan that wasn't sealed?
I would call him directly. I've dealt with this kind of thing before and have little patience for it. Imagine the tables were turned, and you "modified" a plan he had prepared and sealed. I'm sure he'd be on the phone to you very quickly.
Nothing boils my blood more than when other "professionals" take advantage of our stamped products, and act like it's no big deal.
-V
You need to document exactly what you sent to the architect.
don't get me started...
Once I was hired to lay out a rather large and expensive residence at the local country club...using the architect's plans.
Long story short, the house would not fit on the lot. The "plans" showed the side lot lines as parallel when there was a 2 degree convergence.
The architect altered the plans to fit, told the client the surveyor screwed up, and charged them extra to "change" the plans. I won't be in the same room as an "architect".
PS - I really don't mean to be hard on all architects...I bet there is one or two of them that are heterosexual.
They even use inches! How obtuse!
don't get me started...
> Once I was hired to lay out a rather large and expensive residence at the local country club...using the architect's plans.
>
> Long story short, the house would not fit on the lot. The "plans" showed the side lot lines as parallel when there was a 2 degree convergence.
>
> The architect altered the plans to fit, told the client the surveyor screwed up, and charged them extra to "change" the plans. I won't be in the same room as an "architect".
>
>
>
> PS - I really don't mean to be hard on all architects...I bet there is one or two of them that are heterosexual.
You like them more than I do.B-)
don't get me started...
Excuse me, but I think your postscript is completely uncalled for. Am I an architect? No. Am I heterosexual? Yes.
But really.
Yeah, try and do that with an architects plans!!
don't get me started...
You don't have to excuse yourself. I'm completely aware that almost everything that comes out of my mouth is "uncalled for". Most everything on this board is unsolicited.
Speaking one's mind is probably one of the last personal freedoms we may enjoy...that and trying to project personal prudish views on others.
It's a great and diverse country we live in indeed!
BTW - The last time I heard the term "uncalled for" was from my daughter-in-law when I asked my one my grandkids to pull my finger.
don't get me started...
My D.I.L. is the same way. So, did they? And....did you?
Another local surveyor had one of his site plan/topo surveys commandeered by an architect who used all of the line work and topo, whited out the surveyor's name and company information and then passed it off as his own work, charging the client for the preparation of the 'survey'. When I asked him why he didn't take them to court or file a complaint, he said he called them on it but the architect's outfit sent a good deal of work his way and in a small community, you want to be careful who you piss off. In my mind, it was fraud, but taking them to task on it would have meant potentially losing business down the road. :-/
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
don't get me started...
“ BTW - The last time I heard the term "uncalled for" was from my daughter-in-law when I asked my one my grandkids to pull my finger. “
Well you still farted anyway, didn’t you? I sure would have, my grandkids love it when do that. 😉
Just sayin……
Thank you all for your replies. I don't know how I'm going to respond yet. I want to stew about it over the weekend at least. I am very conflicted - like Williwaw's friend, I don't want to unnecessarily cause trouble, but I'm worried that his actions may expose me extra liability, and... he should know better!
I realize now that I screwed up by mentioning this the client. He surprised me on-site with a preliminary copy, and my immediate reaction was "WTF is this!!???" It's always better, for me anyway, when I think about things for a while before I open my mouth.
I showed the plans to a local builder friend this afternoon, and he said he sees this all the time, so this must be a common practice, at least locally.
I had never heard of the architect before (and he said he had never heard of me), but judging from his web site he's been around since the 1970s. So he must be experienced. His web site says he is anyway...
For those asking, he eliminated everything inside the lot lines, and shows only proposed grading, plantings, the relocated house, etc. The only remaining part of my plan are the lot lines and dimensions, existing topo for a few feet outside the lot, and my locus, notes and title block. He did at least remove my seal and signature, but he added no seal or signature himself. It's also a rather unattractive mess of a plan - I'd be embarrassed to have my name on it - oh wait! It is!
In the past, working with landscape architects mostly, I have prepared blanks on mylar or velum showing the background contours and features, with my title block removed, for them to work on and add their own title block if they were hand-drafting, or I could have supplied a cad file but I was never asked. I didn't even know that an architect was involved until I saw his plan.
As to why the town officials would accept an unsigned plan - good question! Oh, did I mention that his website mentions that he used to be chairman of this town's planning board?
I have only seen ONE architect locally who will stamp and sign his plans. He designed my house 20+ years ago, and still does work for several local builders. No other local architects will stamp their plans, and they seem to get away with this.
> .... No other local architects will stamp their plans, and they seem to get away with this.
To be completely liable they'd have to make sure their building closes. Since they can't is why they always leave a couple key dimensions off. If they could, maybe they'd realize that the house won't fit on the lot and still meet setbacks....duh.
Good luck with your dilemma. At a minimum make sure the municipality is aware, in writing, and cc the architurkey. Maybe even the state board.
don't get me started...
I would have rolled my eyes at you and let the fun continue.
(I'm the parent who's taught/teaching my two-year-old twins to say f*rt! HWMBO doesn't find it as funny as I do.)