Who'd like to go compare a R10 to a Javad?

Lee D, post: 455784, member: 7971 wrote: Speaking from 22 years of sales experience... if you can't offer your customers an unbiased opinion of both your equipment and that of your competitors, you have no credibility. One of the reasons my customers liked me was that if I thought one of my products was crap or didn't suit their needs I told them that.

What is required to be a really good consultive technical sales professional is way beyond the scope of a post here, but suffice to say that it involves more than trying to see how much of your customers money you can part from them.

Lee, my knowing you as a dealer rep, I'd have to say that I always felt that was your intention. And you gave me good advice many times. Once you sold me some new equipment that produced erroneous GPS coordinates and computed incorrect orthometric heights. And you went out of your way to support it, and I appreciate it. I also don't recall you suggesting that I buy anything other than what you sold at the time.

This is different. In my opinion, there is no way that a Javad rep or a Trimble Rep is going to post on this board for the world to see that one or the other kicked the other one's rear. The report will be a balancing act or a calibrated response. This test would have been better with completely disinterested parties writing the report. I am getting ready to buy either an LS or an R10, and I'd love it if this test could have met the at least the appearance of being non-biased. I hate to see this test end up with a report that will have the possibility of bias, no matter how hard anyone tries. Mr. Javad will be unhappy if he misses just one sale on account of this. And so will any Trimble sales rep on a commission. Therefore we will likely get strong and weak points of each without any concessions or admissions, and it will be a lot like reading "The Lady or the Tiger." Maybe not though!! I wonder if Javad or regional Trimble will read the report before issued.

Nate The Surveyor, post: 455798, member: 291 wrote: You guys have not read the report.
At least wait till it's out.
Then pick at it.
Nate... (feeling a little better) thanks!

Well said. Glad you feel better.

Frank Willis, post: 455799, member: 472 wrote: Lee, my knowing you as a dealer rep, I'd have to say that I always felt that was your intention. And you gave me good advice many times. Once you sold me some new equipment that produced erroneous GPS coordinates and computed incorrect orthometric heights. And you went out of your way to support it, and I appreciate it. I also don't recall you suggesting that I buy anything other than what you sold at the time.

This is different. In my opinion, there is no way that a Javad rep or a Trimble Rep is going to post on this board for the world to see that one or the other kicked the other one's rear. The report will be a balancing act or a calibrated response. This test would have been better with completely disinterested parties writing the report. I am getting ready to buy either an LS or an R10, and I'd love it if this test could have met the at least the appearance of being non-biased. I hate to see this test end up with a report that will have the possibility of bias, no matter how hard anyone tries. Mr. Javad will be unhappy if he misses just one sale on account of this. And so will any Trimble sales rep on a commission. Therefore we will likely get strong and weak points of each without any concessions or admissions, and it will be a lot like reading "The Lady or the Tiger." Maybe not though!! I wonder if Javad or regional Trimble will read the report before issued.

Why weren't you there to see for your self? I wasn't there and can't speak to the results.

I've been pretty busy since getting home from Arkansas. I wasn't planning to work up the report, but I was asked to do so by "Team Trimble". We had a good time together and respect one another. I had no intention of getting any pre-approval from Javad GNSS, nor did "Team Trimble" plan to get approval from Trimble. I don't have that sort of relationship with Javad anyway. I feel very much like Lee D regarding sales. I've always been straightforward about what we do well and opportunities for improvement with prospective customers. I firmly believe that customers will make the right decision for themselves if given the right information. Hopefully that's me, but not always, and that's okay.

Regarding the test in Arkansas:
Spoiler alert, there was nothing from our time there that would be seen as controversial (at least that I can see). Both systems produced in difficult environments. If anything, we demonstrated that today's RTK is well suited to boundary surveying in canopy when used properly. There are a lot of differentiators between Javad and Trimble, and I still have an affinity for the Javad system. Of course the case can be made that I am biased in that opinion, but that doesn't make it wrong.

was this test 'ground-truthed' in the end?

I am sorry to "The Forum" that we haven't replied yet. But we are all working professionals.

That being said...I am not sure what you guys are expecting to see...there was not an ass kicking by the flag pole, or an embarrassing moment by either party.

The event played out as a group of surveyors that decided to get together and have a good time, talk, share stories and take some observations with their equipment. I do not sale Trimble, I do not work for Trimble. It just so happens that I have used nothing but Trimble (GPS/GNSS). But I would love to have some Trimble SWAG 🙂

I, like everyone else used to rip the Javad ads from the centerfold of American Surveyor. Then I noticed that the Javad-LS is not a fluke, and I became curious.

Fast forward to last weekend...

I met up with Shawn and John and took some shots on various points, some in moderate canopy, some in serious canopy and some in just stupid canopy.

[USER=291]@Nate The Surveyor[/USER] is an avid fan of the Javad and post great things about the unit. We tried to recreate his posts and imagine shots he would like to see a comparison on. Much to everyone's chagrin, both units, the Javad-LS and Trimble R10 were able to take the same shots in all situations we tested them against. There was no difference one way or the other for either unit. The other difference we saw in the field was that the Trimble Unit UHF radio transmitted the corrections about 10 feet shorter than that Javad.

We have point derivation reports, coordinate files, etc. We will get them all lined up in a spreadsheet soon enough - hopefully this weekend when the phone stops ringing...

I love this bar, but guys just chill out..:stakeout:

[MEDIA=youtube]n39__fWDXxA[/MEDIA]

[MEDIA=youtube]81-YqnYiFgE[/MEDIA]

I'd like to thank Stl, Mike, John, and Shawn for taking two days from their Vetran's Day weekend and traveling hundreds of miles to put on the Davidsonville Shootout. Thanks for letting me tag along. Next time I'll bring my staff compass and Lufkin Nubian Pioneer for addional 'ground truth'
DDSM

Shawn Billings, post: 455816, member: 6521 wrote: I've been pretty busy since getting home from Arkansas. I wasn't planning to work up the report, but I was asked to do so by "Team Trimble". We had a good time together and respect one another. I had no intention of getting any pre-approval from Javad GNSS, nor did "Team Trimble" plan to get approval from Trimble. I don't have that sort of relationship with Javad anyway. I feel very much like Lee D regarding sales. I've always been straightforward about what we do well and opportunities for improvement with prospective customers. I firmly believe that customers will make the right decision for themselves if given the right information. Hopefully that's me, but not always, and that's okay.

Regarding the test in Arkansas:
Spoiler alert, there was nothing from our time there that would be seen as controversial (at least that I can see). Both systems produced in difficult environments. If anything, we demonstrated that today's RTK is well suited to boundary surveying in canopy when used properly. There are a lot of differentiators between Javad and Trimble, and I still have an affinity for the Javad system. Of course the case can be made that I am biased in that opinion, but that doesn't make it wrong.

That is good to hear. Shawn, I thought you worked for Javad. I am sorry to have wrongly assumed that. My bad. If Team Trimble asked you to do it, then that removes my concern. Comments were not that anyone who put the effort here to do this would be intentionally misleading. Point was that job security could cause biased results--not that salespeople mislead. We've had Trimble GPS equipment since the S6 and R8GNSS first came out, and having owned many units of the other leading brands in my career we have never had equipment that we liked better than Trimble. The only close seconds were the Wild T0 and the Leica 530 (after it matured) during their respective times, but are now outdated. And certainly another brand might better suit another firm. The switch to Javad we are considering is important to us, thus the value of the Nate test. Sorry for griping about potential bias and jumping the gun. I assumed the worst, and I am extremely interested in the results. Wasn't aimed at anyone on this board's personal integrity.

[USER=472]@Frank Willis[/USER] I've explained my relationship with Javad already and won't plow that ground again. It's there if you care to read it. I do have a financial relationship with Javad, that much is true. But I do not get approval for any communications on this message board from Javad GNSS, which is what you suggested, and what I reject. The "report" as such, regardless of who puts it together is going to be statements regarding the procedure used and the numbers generated. I have every confidence that it will leave many wanting more. I didn't get paid to go. John didn't get paid to go. Ryan didn't get paid to go. Mike didn't get paid to go. DDSM didn't get paid to go. Nate wasn't going to be paid to go. With that in mind, we did it the way we wanted to do it and satisfied our own curiosity. I'm sure many won't share our satisfaction. They are welcome to conduct their own tests, which I would encourage.

There has been some murmuring about John and I being too expert with the Javad equipment. These devices (RTK systems) still require human interaction and work best when worked properly. I spoke with Ryan before we started to make sure he was competent with the R10. It would have been a huge asterisk next to the "W" had we blown out the R10, but found that Ryan was a novice operator. He convinced me that he was competent in the use of the R10. I would hope that any time a contest of this sort is done that the operators are experts. No offense to dealers, but I would suggest that few dealers are truly experts at operating their equipment. That's not to say they don't bring expertise to the equation, but they don't typically know how to push the gear to get the best results in the worst environments. This is only based on anecdotal evidence and may be untrue. What I believe sets John and myself apart is that we use the LS daily in our survey work and also explain to others how to use the LS in their daily work through sales, training and support. This has given us a great deal of practical experience with our equipment that most others don't have. Is that unfair? Or would you prefer to know that the results of the test were as good as it gets? A novice user will not be able to get you the best out of the receiver.

You may not have intended to question anyone's personal integrity, but I sure felt it.

Frank Willis, post: 455799, member: 472 wrote: I also don't recall you suggesting that I buy anything other than what you sold at the time.

At that time I recall very clearly that I SPECIFICALLY ADVISED you not to buy version 1.0 and to wait until they had a chance to get a revision or two under their belts. But that's as far as I'm going down that path.

Lee D, post: 455873, member: 7971 wrote: At that time I recall very clearly that I SPECIFICALLY ADVISED you not to buy version 1.0 and to wait until they had a chance to get a revision or two under their belts. But that's as far as I'm going down that path.

Lee, you are right. I forgot about that. You did tell me not to buy the new equipment from your company, but I did it anyway. None of my posting aimed at you. I was addressing potential bias of a test.

Nate The Surveyor, post: 455798, member: 291 wrote: Nate... (feeling a little better) thanks!

:gammon:

Tale of the Tape!
In the corner wearing grey with yellow stripe trunks from
http://trl.trimble.com/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-625158/022543-544I_TrimbleR10_DS_4pg_US_0817_LR.pdf

In the other corner wearing gray with green buttons
https://www.javad.com/downloads/javadgnss/sheets/TRIUMPH-LS_Datasheet.pdf

The most important question is their respective choices for ring entrance music
[MEDIA=youtube]ONFVIfrPQxc[/MEDIA]

Lee D, post: 455784, member: 7971 wrote: Speaking from 22 years of sales experience... if you can't offer your customers an unbiased opinion of both your equipment and that of your competitors, you have no credibility. One of the reasons my customers liked me was that if I thought one of my products was crap or didn't suit their needs I told them that.

What is required to be a really good consultive technical sales professional is way beyond the scope of a post here, but suffice to say that it involves more than trying to see how much of your customers money you can part from them.

My favorite dealers are the ones that'll tell me when they're product isn't right for what I need. I will go out of my way to buy everything that IS RIGHT from them.

I would love to see a report showing your procedures as much as anything.

Great that you guys took the time to get together and test your units side by side.

Thanks, Steve

Was there any network RTK testing done?

Mark O, post: 456023, member: 11591 wrote: Was there any network RTK testing done?

No, No network we just used base/rover configuration and used DPOS (Javad) and RTX (Trimble) for the base point reduction.

Shawn Billings, post: 455872, member: 6521 wrote: [USER=472]@Frank Willis[/USER] I've explained my relationship with Javad already and won't plow that ground again. It's there if you care to read it. I do have a financial relationship with Javad, that much is true. But I do not get approval for any communications on this message board from Javad GNSS, which is what you suggested, and what I reject. The "report" as such, regardless of who puts it together is going to be statements regarding the procedure used and the numbers generated. I have every confidence that it will leave many wanting more. I didn't get paid to go. John didn't get paid to go. Ryan didn't get paid to go. Mike didn't get paid to go. DDSM didn't get paid to go. Nate wasn't going to be paid to go. With that in mind, we did it the way we wanted to do it and satisfied our own curiosity. I'm sure many won't share our satisfaction. They are welcome to conduct their own tests, which I would encourage.

There has been some murmuring about John and I being too expert with the Javad equipment. These devices (RTK systems) still require human interaction and work best when worked properly. I spoke with Ryan before we started to make sure he was competent with the R10. It would have been a huge asterisk next to the "W" had we blown out the R10, but found that Ryan was a novice operator. He convinced me that he was competent in the use of the R10. I would hope that any time a contest of this sort is done that the operators are experts. No offense to dealers, but I would suggest that few dealers are truly experts at operating their equipment. That's not to say they don't bring expertise to the equation, but they don't typically know how to push the gear to get the best results in the worst environments. This is only based on anecdotal evidence and may be untrue. What I believe sets John and myself apart is that we use the LS daily in our survey work and also explain to others how to use the LS in their daily work through sales, training and support. This has given us a great deal of practical experience with our equipment that most others don't have. Is that unfair? Or would you prefer to know that the results of the test were as good as it gets? A novice user will not be able to get you the best out of the receiver.

You may not have intended to question anyone's personal integrity, but I sure felt it.

I didn't mean to insult your integrity. I re-read what I posted, and I can understand how you might have done that. All I was trying to say was that I though corporate bias could have been introduced. I am perfectly fine with what you have clarified, and I apologize that my posting caused you to think I was questioning your integrity. That was farthest from my mind. Sincerest apologies.