paden cash, post: 371927, member: 20 wrote: I can see how that comes to mind Kris...And although I have never met Kent face to face; from his posts I too would tend to think he's a little "picky". But hell, all surveyors are "micro-managers and narcissistic" when it comes right down to it! 😉 While Kent does have an air of rigidity in his constant admonishments to the rest of us, my take on it is he is probably no different than a million other Texans I have met (don't take it personal). I'm just sayin' Kent has his own way...
In my years of surveying I have sat next to some of the biggest buttholes in the world. And in my defense, I became just as big a jerk as them. I tend to think it's just an occupational hazard. The older we get, the shorter our temperament is with others. I'm sure Kent is no different.
But even though someone seems to constantly berate others, I have always found common ground. It's necessary for a peaceful mental mantra. The only way someone's rant can get under my skin is if I have doubts within myself. And I think Kent uses that as a tool with his argumentative banter...he finds a subject that pushes folks buttons and then he runs with it, imho. But, we all have the right to our opinions and the expression thereof.
I know my professional capability. And even though Kent loves to paint a sub-standard picture of not only the PLSS system, but Oklahoma in general, I take it as jest. The fact is I know nothing about surveying in Texas, and Mr. McMillan knows no practical knowledge of surveying up here north of the Red. We would both fall miserably short of proper work outside of our territory. While I will admit that, I have no idea if Kent would even admit to being inadequate in any sort of surveying environment. That doesn't seem to be how he's wired...
I've spoken with Kent and I really like him. If I had to work with him, I'd probably strangle him about 3 miles from the office.
Well said Paden. One of the things my Daddy taught me was "Appreciate everybody, judge nobody." I often fall woefully short, but I have come to observe that those ideals are found in ALL of the people I respect. We're all different (thank God) and we all express ourselves in different ways.
Kent McMillan, post: 371548, member: 3 wrote: So, you'd just accept the rebar as it is and report it as "found" with no further inquiry needed?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
YOS would consider an educated guess as to where the top of the rebar would be if plumb, describe it as 'moved' being so much north/south and so much east/west.
And get on with life.
Do I win today's almost "impossible answer" quiz ?
Cheers,
Derek
Tom Adams, post: 371980, member: 7285 wrote:
Personally, I'm not getting in the mud with Kent, JBStahl, or Loyal; just maybe making a little jab once in a while and running and hiding when I'm done.
I enjoy the banter. My 'jabs' are few and far between, and are usually not original, but could be considered 'Disturbed'.
DDSM:beer::beer::beer:
paden cash, post: 371927, member: 20 wrote: I know my professional capability. And even though Kent loves to paint a sub-standard picture of not only the PLSS system, but Oklahoma in general, I take it as jest. The fact is I know nothing about surveying in Texas, and Mr. McMillan knows no practical knowledge of surveying up here north of the Red.
Actually, we folk in Texas do have some practically detailed ideas of what Oklahoma surveying is like. I'm not talking about the PK nails in pavement for section corners, no sirree! From time to time we get to see the products of the very best surveyors in the entire Territory State above the Red River. These are the folks who are so skilled that they can do ALTA/NSPS Standard Land Title Surveys in DOWNTOWN AUSTIN and without even locating any controlling monuments!
You see something like that and it just takes your breath away. Well, it does me. I mean, maybe they don't even set PK nails any more in the Zen-like environment of Oklahoma practice and I'm out of date since it's been years since I saw an OK PLSS corner recovery sheet.
We would both fall miserably short of proper work outside of our territory.
Yes, I would be burning up all that time on "research" and looking for "evidence" when that is really mainly just a Texas thing. Well, maybe more of a Central and West Texas thing. It may tail off a bit as you get into the Piney Woods.
Kent McMillan, post: 371538, member: 3 wrote: In the vicinity of one of the corners of the senior tracts whose boundaries define the boundary of the remainder tract I'm surveying, I found this iron rod marker, a #4 rebar in concrete with scraps of old plastic surveyor's ribbon attached to it. Apparently, the fence post (what in some states would be known as the "original" fence corner) was set in concrete in a hole beside the rebar and the concrete ended up encasing the top of the rod. The rebar is the same pattern as other 1/2-inch iron rods found marking other corners of the tract that the public records indicate were placed in 1983. The survey was made before the conveyance and the land was then conveyed using a metes and bounds description prepared by the 1983 surveyor calling for this marker at the corner.
Here's the question: Do you consider the top or the bottom of the rod to mark the corner? I mean all we hear is "original monuments control" and this rebar would appear to be that originally set and described in the deed of record. So, presumably in that world the corner is either (a) the base of the rod, (b) the top of the rod (since that is visible), or some point between the two.
Or, might the corner be somewhere else?
Another excellent Socratic lesson Kent. This is typical of cross examining attorneys attempting to attack the credibility of the expert witness. The proper response is something along the lines of; "well, I would need all the evidence for any particular situation in order to offer an opinion. If you're having a problem with your boundary you should retain my services when we finish this case."
Surveyors who haven't experienced court but expect they might should save this thread for future reference.
Kent McMillan, post: 372020, member: 3 wrote: ...You see something like that and it just takes your breath away. Well, it does me...
Oh Kent, flattery will get you nowhere! I'm glad to see you finally admitting Oklahoma surveyors are superior in some aspects to our "Yellow Rose" brothers south of the Red.
But the admiration is unfounded; I'm not that worthy. While there are "super surveyors" up here like you've mentioned, they have a tendency to save those super powers for surveys out of state. Our State Board is too well aware of their talents and keeps a watchful eye on them. Unlike these Okie Super Surveyors, I am just a mere mortal and put my pants on one leg at a time!
Anybody hear from Kent lately?
This thread does touch on a valid pitfall faced during retracement. We've become collectively disgusted with the pincushion effect which is a good thing. The opposite effect is the temptation to hop on any piece of metal in the ground or fence post that looks kinda old and go without the proper research, investigation, analysis and calculations.
roger_LS, post: 372110, member: 11550 wrote: This thread does touch on a valid pitfall faced during retracement. We've become collectively disgusted with the pincushion effect which is a good thing. The opposite effect is the temptation to hop on any piece of metal in the ground or fence post that looks kinda old and go without the proper research, investigation, analysis and calculations.
Yes except this thread, started by an intentionally deceptive and misleading opening post, does not prove anything about Surveying practice or lack thereof.
Dave Karoly, post: 372118, member: 94 wrote: Yes except this thread, started by an intentionally deceptive and misleading opening post, does not prove anything about Surveying practice or lack thereof.
Sometimes you just need to ask a few questions to answer a question someone just asked you.
Kent did have a question after the photos might the corner be somewhere else.
I found a rod once that was a thick rebar (I forgot the diameter) with a cap. It was sticking up out of the ground at a fairly large angle like 30 or 40å¼ out of plumb, to represent a section corner. On closer inspection there was another pin and cap set flush right below the head of the huge rebar and cap.
We were laughing and scratching our head, with comments like "how crazy thinking your 0.01 or 0.02' more precise than the other guy to the extent that you have to plumb a cap 2' high over another cap. This same surveyor had a lot of caps in the area; so I gave him a call and asked him if he had a survey or any information he could help us with.
I went to his office and met with him. He was an extremely nice guy and shared all the information he had with us. I asked (or he volunteered) about the cap. It seems there was a board rule that if you found an aliquot corner that wasn't the original stone or marker you had to upgrade any caps that didn't meet a minimum standard set by the board. This guy told me he was complying to the rule, but didn't want to go tearing out evidence he found in the field, so his solution was to set a monument that met the written rules of the board without disturbing the monument he found. He actually went to a lot of trouble to try to get the upper-cap exactly over the one he was accepting.
A good example of why sometimes the board rules set out to micromanage what a surveyor should do and when goes against professional judgement. I would be hard-pressed to disturb the actual monumentation I was using as the controlling monumentation of my survey job.
Scott Ellis, post: 372121, member: 7154 wrote: Sometimes you just need to ask a few questions to answer a question someone just asked you.
Kent did have a question after the photos might the corner be somewhere else.
I realize the typical Land a Surveyor is a nice guy so the urge to give Kent a pass on this BS is strong but in this case my initial post is still correct, he was a jerk to frame the post that way. He is in responsible charge of the project so leaving key information out intentionally coupled with the sly question intended to draw responses so that he could post conclusions about the practices of others is unacceptable. Frankly, I didn't respond to the rebar question because I knew he was up to something based on past experiences.
The thing that really drives the point home is he admits it is obvious from actual observation out there that the post has moved. The photos he posted conveniently left that bit of obvious information out. He could've easily shown it a number of ways but then his intention to deceive would not have been fulfilled.
Dave Karoly, post: 372128, member: 94 wrote: .....
The thing that really drives the point home is he admits it is obvious from actual observation out there that the post has moved. The photos he posted conveniently left that bit of obvious information out. He could've easily shown it a number of ways but then his intention to deceive would not have been fulfilled.
I felt fooled.
I viewed the post on a iPhone so the pictures posted were small and not much of a field of view for perspective. It looked like the post was bumped by something like a longhorn steer or farm machinery. It didn't look excavated to me.
Robert Hill, post: 372134, member: 378 wrote: I felt fooled.
I viewed the post on a iPhone so the pictures posted were small and not much of a field of view for perspective. It looked like the post was bumped by something like a longhorn steer or farm machinery. It didn't look excavated to me.
On a serious note, I get confused comprehending some of Kent's posts. I believe in this one it was determined the corner was actually 5' or so distant (I think?). I've seen a number of posts where Kent discounted existing monuments and sets new corners in rather close proximities. From his explanation I get the impression that is common to find a foot or so of error in an old corner and completely discount its position in favor of better geometry or measurement.
I'm sure there is more factors in play than may have been described.
I do get the impression Kent enjoys running 3500 varas through the mesquite and finding and old cedar stake a foot and a half from where he thinks it ought to be and then monumenting his new location. He seems to do a rather thorough job of researching and attempting to 'follow the footsteps'...but from his posts I also get the impression he's not satisfied with those footsteps when he gets to the end of a line.
As I've said several times; I don't know diddley-squat about surveying in Texas. And I still enjoy his posts and pics, even though I don't understand the procedures down there.
paden cash, post: 372149, member: 20 wrote: On a serious note, I get confused comprehending some of Kent's posts. I believe in this one it was determined the corner was actually 5' or so distant (I think?). I've seen a number of posts where Kent discounted existing monuments and sets new corners in rather close proximities. From his explanation I get the impression that is common to find a foot or so of error in an old corner and completely discount its position in favor of better geometry or measurement.
I'm sure there is more factors in play than may have been described.I do get the impression Kent enjoys running 3500 varas through the mesquite and finding and old cedar stake a foot and a half from where he thinks it ought to be and then monumenting his new location. He seems to do a rather thorough job of researching and attempting to 'follow the footsteps'...but from his posts I also get the impression he's not satisfied with those footsteps when he gets to the end of a line.
As I've said several times; I don't know diddley-squat about surveying in Texas. And I still enjoy his posts and pics, even though I don't understand the procedures down there.
I've come to understand Texas surveying through Kent and others posts through the years. In the beginning it all seemed clueless to me like a foreign land. But I came to understand the power of the original patents and deeds. Senior rights you don't mess with at all. A fence is a fence and nothing more. Texas surveying is unique and other states have no relevance.
paden cash, post: 372149, member: 20 wrote:
As I've said several times; I don't know diddley-squat about surveying in Texas. And I still enjoy his posts and pics, even though I don't understand the procedures down there.
AMEN!
BeerLeg would not be the same without the variety of personalities and styles.
:beer::beer:
The one conclusion I've been able to draw from this thread, aside from the narcissistic attitude of the OP being terminal, is how it is nearly impossible to reach the correct conclusion to the validity of evidence in the field without the ability to fully weigh all of the available evidence and circumstances. Where the surveyor in responsible charge is not in the field and is forced to draw conclusions from photographs and other 3rd party collected data, that may or may not provide the correct perspective.
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
Williwaw, post: 372158, member: 7066 wrote: it is nearly impossible to reach the correct conclusion to the validity of evidence in the field without the ability to fully weigh all of the available evidence and circumstances. Where the surveyor in responsible charge is not in the field and is forced to draw conclusions from photographs and other 3rd party collected data, that may or may not provide the correct perspective.
:good:
Kent
I assume you went to the field with record points calculated from the deed, plat or other land title document. Did you have an ah-ha moment of something is wrong with this picture based on your calculated and observed coordinates? The lack of tension in the wire and fence fabric may also be something to look for that merely plumbing the post would not properly tension the wire to an as-built condition. Another clue is there is no divot for the concrete pimple to sit in if you were to merely plumb the post.
Kent
For what its worth, I always appreciate your posts. There is always something to learn. For those that offer disparaging comments, maybe they have reached a point in their career where they don't have a need to continue learning. I on the other hand look for something to learn from each post in this forum. Collectively, there is a wealth of knowledge here. Thanks.