The thread title "Where on the Rod is the Corner?" implies that the surveyor has already made a professional judgment that somewhere on the rod would represent the best available estimate of the original position of the corner.
Most people would measure the position where the bottom of the rod would wind up if the post could be straightened in place, and then see if that made sense with the rest of the evidence. The thread title implies that it did make sense.
Then we are given more evidence, chastised for not deducing it from clues that were more obvious in a personal visit than a photo, and the argument got going. And several sub-arguments that don't address the original issues. I really prefer to see discussions deal with one issue at a time.
[sarcasm]At least is isn't a center of section so we could argue about whether it followed the latitude.[/sarcasm]
Bill93, post: 371815, member: 87 wrote: The thread title "Where on the Rod is the Corner?" implies that the surveyor has already made a professional judgment that somewhere on the rod would represent the best available estimate of the original position of the corner.
Actually, describing a length of rebar as a "rod" represents merely a descriptive observation. The rod itself isn't even in the ground, so asking what point upon it should be taken as the corner was funny. I didn't imagine that I'd get as many takers as I did puzzling over exactly how to locate a corner from that rebar in the air.
Most people would measure the position where the bottom of the rod would wind up if the post could be straightened in place, and then see if that made sense with the rest of the evidence. The thread title implies that it did make sense.
Well, I would have thought that most professional surveyors would recognize from a distance that there was something drastically wrong with the whole setup. Monuments only are evidence of the location of some corner established by a surveyor when they remain in the same place. This one was about as obvious an example of not meeting that criterion as I've seen lately. The next step might be to find a rebar with old, faded surveyor's ribbon attached to it wired to a fence post to see whether any posters are willing to say "neither".
Then we are given more evidence, chastised for not deducing it from clues that were more obvious in a personal visit than a photo, and the argument got going.
Most problems that surveyors deal with are not clean, well-formed problems, but include misleading details that appeal to the surveyor's imagination or desire to pound a square peg into a round hole. The anecdote about Dr. Joseph Bell is perfectly apt.
Kent McMillan, post: 371676, member: 3 wrote: Don't you mean that "in East Texas, if we already have some good trees to staple the wire to, why would be need any posts at all?" :>
No. I meant what I said. The only people that prebuild H-Braces are from Central Texas.
Kris Morgan, post: 371869, member: 29 wrote: No. I meant what I said. The only people that prebuild H-Braces are from Central Texas.
So, they don't realize that you can just run the wire from tree to tree like everyone else does in East Texas?
Kent McMillan, post: 371828, member: 3 wrote: The anecdote about Dr. Joseph Bell is perfectly apt.
I recognized Bell as the real-life very observant doctor who was the inspiration for the Sherlock Holmes stories, but confess I had skipped over the anecdote you refer to. There are a couple here:
http://mentalfloss.com/article/23130/sherlock-holmes-handbook-real-sherlock-holmes
I would note that these anecdotes, as many of Sherlock's deductions, arrived at a likely, perhaps even most likely, explanation but feasible alternative explanations could always be found if one looks for them. We need to remember that most likely is not the same as certain.
Brian Allen, post: 371777, member: 1333 wrote: ....What Kent likes to do in order to try and prove his superiority over other posters is first to set up a false narrative (the straw man), and accuse anyone who doesn't bow at his alter of measurements, first, last, and always, of advocating some ridiculous position about something they do not or never have advocated or believed.
The kicker is that Kent doesn't have to use any narrative to prove his superiority. He just needs to preface any of his statement with the fact that he a Texas Surveyor, and most of us (especially in PLSSia) will realize his superiority immediately and listen with respectful and attentive ears.
As to the Bell anecdote about the liquid, there are two versions here.
http://www.historyextra.com/blog/taste-test
Note that one version uses an unreliable narrator who says:
"He dipped his finger in the liquid, and placed it in his mouth"
Whereas the other does not lead us astray so blatently:
"He dipped his finger into the liquid, and then sucked on his finger."
Subtle wording may help us reach the wrong conclusion.
If you didn't know the story, you can probably guess the punchline now.
Kent McMillan, post: 371878, member: 3 wrote: So, they don't realize that you can just run the wire from tree to tree like everyone else does in East Texas?
You're just jealous that you don't have enough trees in Central and West Texas to build fence like that. That and a lack of oxygen, due in large part to a lack of trees to produce it (and the smog of Austin), is probably why you routinely leave out information in the initial thesis of these posts. That or you're special flavor of narcissistic and need for attention is why. Dealers choice.
You know we should all take it easy on Kent and show some compassion. It must be tough being on top with all the masses of surveyor below to educate. Kent, if you're so good shouldn't you have plenty of work and be busy? You seem to be on here posting throughout the day.
My general impression of some of Kent's posts is he is trying to get the rest of us to think. I think this thread is in response to Nate's thread about excepting monuments, so Kent posts up and shows us a pic on a reason not to use what is probably an original monument. It seems Kent is often being abrasive on purpose, which I think he is, but he is often making valid points and trying to get the rest of us to think outside the box.
One of the biggest mistakes surveyors make in my opinion is having the mindset "always" and "never".
One hot summer afternoon when I was a neophyte, exhausted from hiking around the mountains looking for "corners", I had a flash. I thought "If only I had a time machine!" I could set it up near these places where the crew chief was having us look for a "corner", and just cruise back slowly in time and see exactly what had happened there over the course of time. Why, I could even go back to the time that somebody was supposed to have set the "original stone" and see if they actually had done such a thing! I could find out who and when had set that second or third pipe, rod or stob! I could see which property owner had pulled up that "stone" and used as a weight in the fence down at the ravine! Or moved it over so the spring was now on "his" property... I could find out which utility company had dug up some "corner" and stuck back in the ground in a different location! Wow - how cool would that be? For years I used to mutter under my breath during difficult corner searches, "If I only had a time machine..." Then one day it dawned on me - If I had a time machine I would definately not be sitting around looking for what happened at "corners." Hang on fellas - we're going to see some dinosaurs!
David Livingstone, post: 371914, member: 431 wrote: My general impression of some of Kent's posts is he is trying to get the rest of us to think.
I would have thought after years of reading his posts it would be clear to any rational human that the only thing he wants us to think is how superior he is. He does this by doling out bits of information to lead you down the wrong path so that you get doe popped by the correct answer, that we all would have come to anyway, had we had the information. This is typical behavior of people who are micro-managers and narcissistic.
Jim in AZ, post: 371918, member: 249 wrote: Then one day it dawned on me - If I had a time machine I would definately not be sitting around looking for what happened at "corners." Hang on fellas - we're going to see some dinosaurs!
Dinosaur schminosaur... give me a time machine and I'm betting the farm on Frankie Dettori at Ascot Champions Day 1996
Frankie Dettori achieved a near-impossible feat when winning all seven races on the card at Ascot in September 1996, including winning the prestigious Queen Elizabeth II Stakes. The cumulative odds of these wins was 25,051-1
James Fleming, post: 371921, member: 136 wrote: Dinosaur schminosaur... give me a time machine and I'm betting the farm on Frankie Dettori at Ascot Champions Day 1996
Frankie Dettori achieved a near-impossible feat when winning all seven races on the card at Ascot in September 1996, including winning the prestigious Queen Elizabeth II Stakes. The cumulative odds of these wins was 25,051-1
Oh for shame, what self-respecting land surveyor would actually try to make money? You'd just ruin our image.
Kris Morgan, post: 371920, member: 29 wrote: I would have thought after years of reading his posts it would be clear to any rational human that the only thing he wants us to think is how superior he is. He does this by doling out bits of information to lead you down the wrong path so that you get doe popped by the correct answer, that we all would have come to anyway, had we had the information. This is typical behavior of people who are micro-managers and narcissistic.
Hmmm....While that may be true, consider a couple of things....
Someone who is superior to everyone else, would know they are, and two, Just because you may be narcissistic doesn't necessarily mean you are ever wrong.
Kris Morgan, post: 371920, member: 29 wrote: I would have thought after years of reading his posts it would be clear to any rational human that the only thing he wants us to think is how superior he is. He does this by doling out bits of information to lead you down the wrong path so that you get doe popped by the correct answer, that we all would have come to anyway, had we had the information. This is typical behavior of people who are micro-managers and narcissistic.
I can see how that comes to mind Kris...And although I have never met Kent face to face; from his posts I too would tend to think he's a little "picky". But hell, all surveyors are "micro-managers and narcissistic" when it comes right down to it! 😉 While Kent does have an air of rigidity in his constant admonishments to the rest of us, my take on it is he is probably no different than a million other Texans I have met (don't take it personal). I'm just sayin' Kent has his own way...
In my years of surveying I have sat next to some of the biggest buttholes in the world. And in my defense, I became just as big a jerk as them. I tend to think it's just an occupational hazard. The older we get, the shorter our temperament is with others. I'm sure Kent is no different.
But even though someone seems to constantly berate others, I have always found common ground. It's necessary for a peaceful mental mantra. The only way someone's rant can get under my skin is if I have doubts within myself. And I think Kent uses that as a tool with his argumentative banter...he finds a subject that pushes folks buttons and then he runs with it, imho. But, we all have the right to our opinions and the expression thereof.
I know my professional capability. And even though Kent loves to paint a sub-standard picture of not only the PLSS system, but Oklahoma in general, I take it as jest. The fact is I know nothing about surveying in Texas, and Mr. McMillan knows no practical knowledge of surveying up here north of the Red. We would both fall miserably short of proper work outside of our territory. While I will admit that, I have no idea if Kent would even admit to being inadequate in any sort of surveying environment. That doesn't seem to be how he's wired...
I've spoken with Kent and I really like him. If I had to work with him, I'd probably strangle him about 3 miles from the office.
[USER=20]@paden cash[/USER]
Life is short. It's even shorter when you're around self-aggrandizing AH's. 3 miles may be a bit generous. 🙂
paden cash, post: 371927, member: 20 wrote:
I know my professional capability. And even though Kent loves to paint a sub-standard picture of not only the PLSS system, but Oklahoma in general, I take it as jest.
Hello paden,
discovery channel films a show called Street Outlaws in OKC about people drag racing on closed roads around your part of the country. Is it a big deal down there or would you not notice if you didn't go looking?
paden cash, post: 371927, member: 20 wrote: I can see how that comes to mind Kris...And although I have never met Kent face to face; from his posts I too would tend to think he's a little "picky". But hell, all surveyors are "micro-managers and narcissistic" when it comes right down to it! While Kent does have an air of rigidity in his constant admonishments to the rest of us, my take on it is he is probably no different than a million other Texans I have met (don't take it personal). I'm just sayin' Kent has his own way...
In my years of surveying I have sat next to some of the biggest buttholes in the world. And in my defense, I became just as big a jerk as them. I tend to think it's just an occupational hazard. The older we get, the shorter our temperament is with others. I'm sure Kent is no different.
But even though someone seems to constantly berate others, I have always found common ground. It's necessary for a peaceful mental mantra. The only way someone's rant can get under my skin is if I have doubts within myself. And I think Kent uses that as a tool with his argumentative banter...he finds a subject that pushes folks buttons and then he runs with it, imho. But, we all have the right to our opinions and the expression thereof.
I know my professional capability. And even though Kent loves to paint a sub-standard picture of not only the PLSS system, but Oklahoma in general, I take it as jest. The fact is I know nothing about surveying in Texas, and Mr. McMillan knows no practical knowledge of surveying up here north of the Red. We would both fall miserably short of proper work outside of our territory. While I will admit that, I have no idea if Kent would even admit to being inadequate in any sort of surveying environment. That doesn't seem to be how he's wired...
I've spoken with Kent and I really like him. If I had to work with him, I'd probably strangle him about 3 miles from the office.
I have never heard Kent talk trash or call names. He is more like a cat teasing a bunch of us survey rats. I have a great respect of his intellect, and try to do light joking around. In my old age, I have gotten a little thicker skin and can take it when someone gives me crap or shows me up. I would rather learn from it, and/or Kent than trying to outwit him. Sometimes I end up having a new realization of how to look at evidence and mathematical relationships.
Personally, I'm not getting in the mud with Kent, JBStahl, or Loyal; just maybe making a little jab once in a while and running and hiding when I'm done.