What does your state board call it.

What does your state board call it.> MA

I did put it in the other thread but here you go!!

"Locate physical occupation lines (e.g., fences, hedges, walls, etc.) between adjoiners; make comments on possible age of possession; verify age by parole and written evidence."

Maine's rules do not use the dreaded word but I would say they require us to show or at least report apparent encroachments based on this language:

"Boundary Report Duty

C. Any other matter a licensee should reasonably expect to be relevant to a client’s current needs or is necessary given the circumstances of the situation at the time of the survey and is within the scope of professional practice." [emphasis added]

I can't imagine a situation wherein I would not show or report apparent encroachment. I do sometimes label it "casual encroachment" (firewood piled over the line etc.) just to keep everyone calm.

The Utah Council of Land Surveyors Standards of Practice for Boundary Surveys says:

"clearly indicate lines of occupation, and the extent of any encroachment relative to parcel boundaries"

and,

"explain and identify the purpose of the survey and its intended use such as, construction of improvements, determination of encroachments, transfer of ownership, parcel division, etc."

and,

"These Standards provide for public needs such as: ... Discovering and documenting latent or patent ambiguities and encroachments for resolution."

JBS

What does your state board call it.> MA

You got yours there while I was putting my post together. Sorry for missing it.:-$

In Florida...

5J-17.052 Specific Survey, Map, and Report Requirements. (2) Boundary Survey, Map, and Report: (c) 2. Open and notorious evidence of boundary lines, such as fences, walls, buildings, monuments or otherwise, shall be shown upon the map, together with dimensions sufficient to show their relationship to the boundary line(s).

(e) Real Property Improvements:
1. Location of fixed improvements pertinent to the survey shall be graphically shown upon the map and their positions shall be dimensioned in reference to the boundaries, either directly or by offset lines.

Texas

Material Discrepancy (who the hell knows what that is). This is the plat portion of our MTS.

For the purposes of these rules the word "report" shall mean any or all of the following survey plat, descriptions, or written narratives.
(1) All reports shall delineate the relationship between record monuments and the location of boundaries surveyed, such relationship shall be shown on the survey plat, if a plat is prepared, and/or separate report and recited in the description with the appropriate record references recited thereon and therein.

(10) If a land surveyor provides a written narrative in lieu of a Plat/sketch/drawing to report the results of a survey, the written narrative shall contain sufficient information to demonstrate the survey was conducted in compliance with the Act and rules of the Board.

The result of a quick Googling comes up with:

Encroachment is the illegal intrusion into a property with or without obstruction. The term covers all property, highway, or navigable rivers.
-State of Cal. ex rel. State Lands Com. v. Superior Court, 36 Cal. App. 4th 114 (Cal. Ct. App. 1993)

An illegal intrusion in a highway or navigable river, with or without obstruction. An encroachment upon a street or highway is a fixture, such as a wall or fence, which illegally intrudes into or invades the highway or encloses a portion of it, diminishing its width or area, but without closing it to public travel.
-West's Encyclopedia of American Law, Edition 2. Copyright 2008

To unlawfully gain access to or take the property or possessions of another, particularly by stealth.
-Webster's New World Law Dictionary Copyright © 2010

So this begs the additional (and probably more important) question; if your state's regulations requires you to show "encroachments" do you know how "encroachment" is legally defined in your state or are you just making assumptions based on common or regional usage of the word.

If you determine that something is, by the accepted legal definition in your jurisdiction, an encroachment, and your are enjoined by your regulations to show it on your survey, then you best show it on your survey. But I just can't intellectually make the leap that a regulation requiring me to show encroachments is requiring me to certify to the motive of the individual (whether they were acting lawfully or unlawfully) every time I find something across a line, when I can't, in that situation, collect enough evidence to make that call.

> If you determine that something is, by the accepted legal definition in your jurisdiction, an encroachment, and your are enjoined by your regulations to show it on your survey, then you best show it on your survey. But I just can't intellectually make the leap that a regulation requiring me to show encroachments is requiring me to certify to the motive of the individual (whether they were acting lawfully or unlawfully) every time I find something across a line, when I can't, in that situation, collect enough evidence to make that call.

Not meaning anything derogatory, but meaning to make us think about our overall duty as a land surveyor, licensed to protect the public...

Can't, or Won't? It's certainly possible to "collect enough evidence to make that call." Does that mean that, as a profession, we "choose" to not collect it?

JBS

Ah, but I can equally quote law dictionaries that state an encroachment is an improvement over a property line. No illegal in there. So, if the legal profession has not definitively defined encroachment, how then can you say that is NOT what your state means with the rule?

Especially when the state calls a permit to put something into a r/w an "encroachment permit"? That would seem to imply that illegal is not part of the definition, because if it is permitted, it is not illegal but rather an easement.

New York

Section 11 B of the Land Surveying Practice guidelines published by the State Office of the Professions states:

11. Identify character and location of visible physical features with reference to boundary lines as necessary to inform the owner of critical issues affecting title (i.e. encroachments, easements, structural projects and openings, visible utilities);

.

NYSAPLS (the State Society) Code of Practice, Section 3.K states:

7. Buildings or fences on adjoining land and encroachment of eaves, cornices, blinds, etc. within three (3) feet of the boundaries of the surveyed premises should be shown and located.”

10. Encroaching structural appurtenances and projections such as fire escapes, bay windows, windows that open out, flue pipes, stoops, areas, steps, trim, etc., encroaching or on adjoining property or on abutting streets should be indicated with a notation of apparent encroachment.

11. Joint or common driveways should be shown. Independent driveways along the boundary, if encroaching, shall be shown together with the extent of the encroachment.

.

On their “Consumer Information" webpage, the Office of the Professions states:

When would I use the services of a land surveyor?
You might employ a licensed LS to:
• perform a boundary survey to verify that a house, additions, and visible water and sewerage systems are on the property
as described in the deed;
• determine if one property encroaches on another;
• ensure that a house or addition is within property lines prior to construction or purchase; and
• lay out the individual building lots in a subdivision.

Note that none of these is a law or regulation. (Not to mention the poorly written phrase "...if one property encroaches upon another....")

I'm a surveyor and I'm here to protect the public; sounds suspiciously like I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

Yes mam, based on my above statement, I am depriving you of due process of law and publishing my determination that you no longer own this portion of your property. Really, it's for your own good, you can thank me later.

> Not meaning anything derogatory, but meaning to make us think about our overall duty as a land surveyor, licensed to protect the public...
>
> Can't, or Won't? It's certainly possible to "collect enough evidence to make that call." Does that mean that, as a profession, we "choose" to not collect it?

Not to be derogatory, but I have a bloody good enough grasp of the English language to know the difference between "can't" and "won't" and to use the one I felt was appropriate.

> Ah, but I can equally quote law dictionaries that state an encroachment is an improvement over a property line. No illegal in there. So, if the legal profession has not definitively defined encroachment, how then can you say that is NOT what your state means with the rule?
>
> Especially when the state calls a permit to put something into a r/w an "encroachment permit"? That would seem to imply that illegal is not part of the definition, because if it is permitted, it is not illegal but rather an easement.

I'm confused, are you disagreeing with me or making my point for me?

All my original post was stating is: research how "encroachment" is defined and used in the jurisdiction you are practicing and proceed accordingly. What any state other than the one I'm practicing in calls a permit to place something in a right of way is of as little consequence to me as my state's definition of a navigable river is to a surveyor in Georgia.

> Not to be derogatory, but I have a bloody good enough grasp of the English language to know the difference between "can't" and "won't" and to use the one I felt was appropriate.

Please don't misunderstand, James. I wasn't questioning your grasp of the language or your use of the word. I used to think exactly the same way and used to practice the same.

Notice I used the word "used to." That's because I've overcome my once self-imposed limitation of "can't." I "can" do it, because I choose to do it. Is it easy? No. But it "can" be done. I've been "doing" it and find that it works to "do" it. I'm simply pointing out to the profession, what I've discovered and what I'm doing. A statement that says we "can't," when my practice says that I "can," needs to be discussed. I'm not saying that other surveyors "must" do it. I'm merely saying that they really "can."

JBS

> I'm a surveyor and I'm here to protect the public; sounds suspiciously like I'm from the government and I'm here to help.
>
You're right, Duane. That's why it's important for the surveyor not to express an opinion before they've gathered the evidence necessary to support their opinion. The problem we have with expressing an opinion regarding an encroachment (or a boundary for that matter) is that we've typically made no real attempt to gather the evidence necessary to determine if, in fact, it is an encroachment.

An encroachment isn't a "legal opinion." It's a factual opinion. If a structure is constructed without permission by someone other than the owner, it's an encroachment. I need to know four things: 1) where is the boundary, 2) where is the structure, 3) was the structure erected by someone other than the owner, and 4) was permission granted?

A couple of simple questions asked of the right parties will give me the evidence I need to formulate an opinion. The next trick in the game is knowing what to do once you've formulated your opinion. (Hint: the first step isn't to document it)

JBS

5J-17.052 Minimum Technical Standards: Specific Survey, Map, and Report Requirements.

(c) Boundary Inconsistencies:
1. Potential boundary inconsistencies that the survey process did not attempt to detect shall be clearly indicated and explained on the survey map or in the report. Where evidence of inconsistency is found, the nature of the inconsistency shall be shown upon the survey map, such as:
a. Overlapping descriptions or hiatuses;
b. Excess or deficiency;
c. Conflicting boundary lines or monuments; or
d. Doubt as to the location on the ground of survey lines or property rights.
2. Open and notorious evidence of boundary lines, such as fences, walls, buildings, monuments or otherwise, shall be shown upon the map, together with dimensions sufficient to show their relationship to the boundary line(s).
3. All apparent physical use onto or from adjoining property must be indicated, with the extent of such use shown or noted upon the map.
4. In all cases where foundations may violate deed or easement lines and are beneath the surface, failure to determine their location shall be noted upon the map or report.

but James, you say that you cannot see how the rules saying shows encroachment means that anything over a property line is an encroachment and attempt to use Blacks to prove your point that an encroachment can only be illegal. I point out that Blacks is not the only legal dictionary and others do not require illegal to be an encroachment. And building off that point, I point out that in some states the permit to put a structure in a r/w is callled an encroachment permit. That gives credence to the interpretation that encroachment in that state means anything over a line, without the requirement of illegal because if it is permitted, it is not illegal. That being the case, how can you say you "cannot" see how interpreting encroachment in the rules to mean anything over the property line. Sorry, but looks to me like it is "will not".

That is my point.

Of course in your state it may be different. But that is why I posted this. We are arguing a term "encroachment" that is not consistently applied between states, and then trying to claim that Blacks, or Gary Kent, or GeorgiaSurveyor are the final authority on what the word means, and that simply is not the case. The word means what it means in each state. So to say that someone who uses "encroaches" is opening themselves up to liability simply as an ad hoc statement is a falsehood. In fact, in some situations not using the word may open you up to bigger problems.

Arkansas Standards of Practice For Property Boundary Surveys and Plats (Revised May 21, 2009)

Section 4.1 Publication of Results. A plat showing the results of each survey shall be prepared and distributed as follows:

Section 4.1.A. Preparation of Plats. A scale drawing of the property with the following information shall be a part of every plat:

Section 4.1.A.4 Reasonably observed encroachments and possession lines.

:beer:
DDSM

COLORADO ENCROACHMENTS

Colorado Revised Statutes

38-53-103. Definitions.
As used in this article, unless the context otherwise requires:

(9) "Improvement survey plat" means a land survey plat as defined in subsection (12) of this section, resulting from a monumented land survey showing the location of all structures, visible utilities, fences, hedges, or walls situated on the described parcel and within five feet of all boundaries of such parcel, any conflicting boundary evidence or visible encroachments, and all easements, underground utilities, or tunnels, for which property recorded evidence is available from the county clerk and recorder, a title insurance company, or other source as specified on the improvement survey plat.

38-51-108. Improvement location certificate.
Required Certification

I hereby certify that this improvement location certificate was prepared for .... (individual or firm) ...., that it is not a land survey plat or improvement survey plat, and that it is not to be relied upon for the establishment of fence, building, or other future improvement lines.
I further certify that the improvements on the above described parcel on this date, .... (insert date) ...., except utility connections, are entirely within the boundaries of the parcel, except as shown, that there are no encroachments upon the described premises by improvements on any adjoining premises, except as indicated, and that there is no apparent evidence or sign of any easement crossing or burdening any part of said parcel, except as noted.

State Board Rules of Procedure

6.6 Minimum Standards for Improvement Location Certificates

(i) Apparent encroachments shall be noted and shown in an obvious manner. When the level of certainty of dimensions to possible encroachments are not precise enough for a positive determination, a boundary survey shall be recommended.