Adam, post: 395972, member: 8900 wrote: Should have signed an agreement with the guy, It's your property. When someone calls that is not the owner or buyer I won't discuss cost. Now on the other hand he probably should of done this first....
I thought I should clarify my statement a bit. Agreement means contract. When I say it's your property I am not referring to the disputed area but the whole property. It's very important for the owner and surveyor to have a relationship with each other.
Can't really comment on the billing without seeing an itemized list of the time/charges of what was done.
I might speculate that what was needed was a surveyor with solutions to your problem rather than one that documents "problems."
It may be past the point of working it out with the neighbor but if the line is uncertain as least as far as a surveyor(s) being able to identify it, a boundary line agreement/adjustment between the neighbors fixing the line may have been the way to solve your problem and may have been the quickest least cost method also.
LRDay, post: 396037, member: 571 wrote: Can't really comment on the billing without seeing an itemized list of the time/charges of what was done.
I might speculate that what was needed was a surveyor with solutions to your problem rather than one that documents "problems."
It may be past the point of working it out with the neighbor but if the line is uncertain as least as far as a surveyor(s) being able to identify it, a boundary line agreement/adjustment between the neighbors fixing the line may have been the way to solve your problem and may have been the quickest least cost method also.
Leon is right-on.
The surveyor needs to talk to the owner and find out exactly what he is wanting accomplished...even if the owner isn't exactly sure.
As soon as the surveyor realizes that the survey is going to cost three-times the original quote, he needs to, again, open a dialogue with the owner. The cost of the survey is way too high, at least because they originally said $500 to $1000 and ended up 3 (later 6) times that without mention of the accumulating problems and costs. (assuming that is how it went down)
I do all my work lump sum, but if I were in your shoes, I would request an itemized bill to account for the time spent on this. If they can't provide a realistic account of their time, I'd want to negotiate that fee down. It sounds to me like they just pulled a number out of the air based on the PITA factor of your property.
$6700 for a .67 ac. lot?....................
..........................Where exactly are you in Ohio? Is it warm there in the winter? How bad are the winters, anyway? How's the cost of living? Is there lots of poison ivy/oak? Do the summers get blistering hot & humid? How many days a year do you see rain? How far to the nearest decent grocery store? Hardware store?.......
Tom Adams, post: 396019, member: 7285 wrote: It appears that this boundary dispute has already cost way too much. $115 home. What is the land worth? Is the dirt that the house is on worth the $6,000 already spent? I suggest trying to talk openly and sensibly with your neighbor if you possibly can. If he finds you to be generous in your compromise, you might end up with a good neighbor that you aren't always bickering with.
I have a $200K home on a å?-acre with a land value of $20,000. My fence is onto my neighbor's property about 10'. I, personally, wouldn't care if it was on my property. I would never argue over that 10' unless it meant some improvement was encroaching and it might cost me money from that side. (sorry to any of my surveyor friends for advocating not spending any more money on a survey, but geez it just doesn't seem worth it to me.)
Anyway, food for thought.
Did you really mean 10 feet? Or is that supposed to be inches? 10 feet in a half acre seems to be a lot to me. But then again it is always a matter of perspective I guess...
As to the OP... I agree with Mark Mayer, above. The fee is quite possibly, or likely, reasonable. The lack of being up front isn't. I will add that fees around the country vary largely. And depending on the area someone may be required by their state law or local rules to do work that in other areas of the country or state aren't required. I guess what I am trying to say is that though $6,700 may be reasonable where I am, in some places around the country it would be higher than they would charge, and it others it would be lower.
ppm, post: 396070, member: 6808 wrote: Did you really mean 10 feet? Or is that supposed to be inches? 10 feet in a half acre seems to be a lot to me. But then again it is always a matter of perspective I guess...
Yes, it is a matter of perspective. If the 10' meant it was affecting a setback, or the width of a vollyball net, (I mean if the 10' really meant some kind of harm to the enjoyment of my property), I would fight it. Sometimes 2' is worth fighting for, sometimes an acre is not a big deal. In my case, the fence is into my neighbor's property and he has no problem with that (for the 12 years since he built).
not my real name, post: 395945, member: 8199 wrote: Really why so much information is required is beyond me. I am glad the poster didn't fall for this bait.
It is kind of ludicrous especially when requested from an anonymous and unknown message board poster on the Internet with no contact information.
It the kind of things that we warn children against.
Really, we are surveyors. We have for far too long, given our work away. When I hear about what sounds like an overcharge, I think, well, that will average out!
Hope you get it sorted out.
Nate
I get the impression - reading between the lines - that the OP hired a surveyor (through his SF) who is accustomed to working "commercial construction" and billing hours day by day. As such, they may have spent more time than another who was more familiar with boundary work might have. Probably the OP can get the SF to negotiate this down, using the ongoing business relationship as his lever. If this is so, the surveyor may have billed with an expectation of it being challenged, then discounted, and just wanted to make sure the SF understood just how much of a favor he was getting. These are the games people play.
Robert Hill, post: 396143, member: 378 wrote: It is kind of ludicrous especially when requested from an anonymous and unknown message board poster on the Internet with no contact information.
It the kind of things that we warn children against.
It is not ludicrous at all to want to remain anonymous. I don't need to know what street you live on to tell you that an estimate of $500 to $1000 that winds up being $3700 without any prior contact is not something I would consider professional or advisable to anyone in business.
Maybe if you would stick to the subject of this discussion your mind wouldn't wander onto some wild and insulting conspiracy theory about children.
Just wanted to point out that in Ohio, you are required to produce a plat for every boundary survey with the client being the only one who is required to get a copy...unless you split an existing parcel.
4733-37-05 Plat of survey. (Ohio Administrative Code)
(A) The surveyor shall prepare a scale drawing of every individual survey, or drawings comprising all of the surveys when they are contiguous, in which the surveyor retraces previously established property lines or establishes new boundaries.
(B) A copy of this drawing shall be given to the client. When required, another copy shall be filed with the appropriate public agencies.
survbob, post: 396178, member: 7572 wrote: Just wanted to point out that in Ohio, you are required to produce a plat for every boundary survey with the client being the only one who is required to get a copy...unless you split an existing parcel.
4733-37-05 Plat of survey. (Ohio Administrative Code)
(A) The surveyor shall prepare a scale drawing of every individual survey, or drawings comprising all of the surveys when they are contiguous, in which the surveyor retraces previously established property lines or establishes new boundaries.(B) A copy of this drawing shall be given to the client. When required, another copy shall be filed with the appropriate public agencies.
I was wondering about that as well. Florida has a similar law.
survbob, post: 396178, member: 7572 wrote: Just wanted to point out that in Ohio, you are required to produce a plat for every boundary survey with the client being the only one who is required to get a copy...unless you split an existing parcel.
4733-37-05 Plat of survey. (Ohio Administrative Code)
(A) The surveyor shall prepare a scale drawing of every individual survey, or drawings comprising all of the surveys when they are contiguous, in which the surveyor retraces previously established property lines or establishes new boundaries.(B) A copy of this drawing shall be given to the client. When required, another copy shall be filed with the appropriate public agencies.
With that in mind, it seems to me that the surveyor in this case should have already figured out everything he needs to figure for out boundary determination drawn a plat in the first survey. If he was faced with extra-complicated boundary issues, the first price may have been a reasonable price. It also seems to me that if he had to go back out to locate some stakes and add them to his drawing, the price of that work should have been peanuts. I don't like it.
I do feel strange about judging a survey without benefit of what the surveyor actually did, and what complications he ran up against (and not knowing Ohio Laws or having seen the plat etc.)
While $6700 isn't out of the realm of possibility of a reasonable cost for a survey of a 2/3 acre parcel, that would be pretty high even in most parts of CA. Note that of the surveyors stating that it seems reasonable, or might be reasonable, most work in or near metropolitan or other high dollar real estate markets where median home prices are up around $500k. Local economies and average real estate values will certainly factor in to what is a "reasonable" cost for a boundary survey.
As someone else had stated, the size of the parcel is not the real determinative factor for estimating the cost for a boundary survey. The level of effort is the determinative factor. For example, someone might own 640 acres, and the cost might be $5000, and someone else might own 2.5 acres across the road, and the cost be $15,000, both being proper for the effort involved. Here's why...
The 640 acre parcel is a full section of land (depending upon where you are in OH, the particulars of this example may or may not be applicable to the land system, but the principles are roughly the same in all locations). The primary corners are the 4 Section Corners, and the 4 Quarter Corners (nominally at the mid points of each side). Quite often, most or all of these corner monuments will be in place, and when they're not, there are typically sufficient easily obtainable records to properly replace them in the correct positions. Being a full section, there isn't much title research to do, no concern of senior or junior conveyances, and no history of land subdivision beyond the original government survey. There is some research for subsequent surveys which tied into these corners as controlling corners for the boundaries of other parcels in the area. Those maps will show when and how any missing monuments were replaced, which surveyors found what evidence of prior surveys and how they viewed the reliability of that evidence.
If all of the section corners are in, the surveyor is looking at 4 miles of line and 8 corner locations. If any of the section corners are missing and there is no reliable evidence near the corner point to replace the monument easily, then there will typically be 1 to 2 miles of additional line and 2 additional points to locate. In most parts of the Midwest, there are roads on the section lines, so that's not really as much work as it might sound like. If the monuments are easily accessible and the surveyor is using GPS, the field effort isn't much at all relative to the amount of land comprising the parcel.
The 2.5 acre parcel may be described as a quarter of a quarter of a quarter of a quarter (1/256 th) of a section. It may have been resulted from several land divisions over the past 200 years or so. The surveyor may be required to research back through many or all of those land divisions to determine the sequence (which has an effect on property rights) and the methods used for each division of land along the way. There may be easements, agreements, adjustments, judgments, etc. on file that need to be looked at to determine if they have an effect on the boundary location. The research effort typically will be greater for such a smaller parcel simply because there will have been more title actions in the record history that occurred than for a larger undivided parcel.
Unless there is a clear and complete survey history in the public record to show how each land division was made, which monuments were set, and how the evidence of each survey was used to control each subsequent survey, the field work will be fairly extensive. Even where there is mandatory public recording of boundary survey maps and good public records, there is almost always breaks and/or inconsistencies in the survey record. With the parcel described as an aliquot division (described by halves and/or quarters of the whole or of larger aliquot divisions), and assuming a less than perfect survey history in the public records, the front end of the field effort is going to be pretty much the same as the full effort of the 640 acre parcel. That's to locate the controlling corners of the section that the aliquot divisions must be based on. But in addition, the divisional lines of each of the subdivisions that occurred to get down to the 2.5 acre parcel must also be surveyed. That's an additional nearly 4 miles of line and 16 corners that weren't required for the 640 acre survey. Compounding the level of effort is that most of these points are not likely to be in or along roads, but rather in fields, along fences or hedgerows, in peoples back yards, etc. - meaning the potential for a lot more accessibility problems and missing or disturbed, and thus unusable corner monuments. The level of field effort might be 2 to 4 times greater than that for the 640 acre parcel.
A smaller parcel in a rural area is likely to have more use and more constructed objects close to the boundaries than is an undivided section. That may mean additional work of locating buildings, driveways, patios, etc.
The level of detail required to be shown on the map will typically also have an inverse relationship to the parcel size. With the large parcel in this example, the controlling corners are also the parcel corners, 8 points to show, 8 line segments. Pretty simple. With the smaller parcel, not only will the surveyor show the corners of the parcel, but also the controlling exterior section corners used to determine the parcel corner locations, and any other subdivisional corners that were located and are relevant to the parcel boundary determination. Depending upon the previous survey history, that could be not much more than 8 line segments and as many corner monuments, or it could mean including another map sheet to show the section breakdown, which would include up to about 40 line segments and corner positions. Additionally, if any of the uses or improvements of the surveyed parcel or the neighboring parcels are potentially encroaching over a property line or in some cases, are close to the line, those will need to be shown as well.
All that being said, this example demonstrates how a near best case example on a large parcel can compare to a near worst case example for a small parcel in the same area.
Addressing the specifics of your situation, as a few others have said, there should have been a written contract in place. Surveying is a professional service and most clients don't really know what will be involved going in. Most people wouldn't go into a business relationship with any other type of professional without a written contract. The reason is simple, it protects both sides by clearly stating what each party expects of the other in terms of service, product or deliverable documentation, set or estimated fee and terms of payment. Many states have a legal requirement for a written contract to be in place. I don't know if OH is one of them.
Even without having a written contract, if you have any communications, either between you and the surveyor or between your F.I.L. and the surveyor where the initial estimate is mentioned, that will help.
From the statute posted earlier, it seems that a final boundary map or plat should have been included with the initial survey, so a charge in the later effort to provide a map doesn't seem reasonable.
In the 2nd effort, there should have been no additional research charges unless something was disclosed to the surveyor after his initial effort and that fact or document was not something that would have been found in the public records typically considered in a boundary survey and there were no other documents in the typically considered record or facts that he discovered or should have discovered in his initial field survey that should have clued him in to the newly disclosed facts/documents.
The field effort to locate the other surveyor's stakes should be minimal, an hour or two of measuring plus travel time.
The effort to place the locations of the other surveyor's stakes on the map should likewise have been minimal since your surveyor was legally required to have already produced a map for you from his previous effort.
It is reasonable to expect that the follow up effort would have a fee associated with it, but unless there were facts disclosed to him that would require him to need to revisit his entire previous effort (highly unlikely), that subsequent fee should have been a fairly small fraction of the initial fee amount.
The fee for the initial effort of $2980 might very well be a reasonable fee for the effort required to complete your survey. There probably isn't a legal requirement for him to have informed you as soon as he knew the actual cost would exceed the initial estimate. But it isn't reasonable that the final charge for that initial effort was 3 times the high end of the initial estimate without the surveyor ever having consulted directly with you about the circumstances that would cause such a difference from the initial estimate.
I don't really read anything nefarious that the retired surveyor came out of retirement in order to set the stakes for your neighbor. I can see a reputable retired surveyor doing that to help a friend who needs stakes set before other surveyors could get to it, or if that friend is not in a position to afford to hire another surveyor. It doesn't necessarily mean that the surveyor would alter his survey results to benefit his friend. It's just too easy for another surveyor to be hired and find evidence of bad-faith altering of results, especially when the retired surveyor had previously surveyed your parcel and he knows that there is contention over the line. Even for someone who is dishonest enough to alter results to benefit his client, the risks are too high when there is an ongoing dispute and the other side has or will hire a surveyor.
That's potentially bad news for you. The retired surveyor previously surveyed your lot and has now replaced a missing monument and placed stakes on the line for your neighbor. Unless that surveyor is a complete knucklehead, his new points are going to be in agreement with his old survey. He is also apparently familiar with the area. All of which means, not conclusively, but more likely than not, that the retired surveyor is right and your high-dollar guy is wrong.
There isn't really any good news that I can see in this for you, but maybe some of it might be made less bad. At a minimum, the business practices of your surveyor are very poor and the legitimacy of at least some of his charges are in doubt. You may be able to get a fair amount of them back in small claims court. It also sounds like he may not have been competent to perform your boundary survey, if that were the case, you could probably get back all your fees plus whatever it costs to recover them, and possibly any other costs incurred by you because of his negligence.
Again with the bad news... Even if he was negligent, it will cost you more $$$ to prove that before you could ever recover your existing costs. First, you would need to hire another surveyor. Someone local with a good deal of boundary surveying experience, and preferably one who has credentials for that expertise beyond having a license to survey. You should probably do this regardless of how you plan to deal with the surveyor you've already used so that you go into mediation or arbitration over the boundary with your neighbor having a boundary opinion from a surveyor you feel you can trust.
If your new surveyor agrees with the retired surveyor, then you have 2.5' of land less than the construction surveyor told you, but it will save you $50,000 or more in avoiding fighting a legal battle over the boundary you are unlikely to win. If your new surveyor disagrees with the retired surveyor and agrees with the construction surveyor, then you know that you have something to mediate or if that fails, litigate.
Whatever the findings of your new surveyor, he will be disagreeing with at least one of the other surveyors. A good test of the expertise of the surveyor is if he can explain the points of disagreement in terms of evidence rather than in terms of math and dimensions. In court, not only evidence, but an expert who can convincingly explain it and an attorney who can effectively introduce and argue for it wins. Math and dimensions win when the attorney, the expert, or both lack understanding of boundaries.
If your new surveyor disagrees with the construction surveyor, and can explain in terms of the evidence why the construction surveyor was wrong, then you may have a good basis for a consumer complaint with the surveyors' licensing board for negligence and/or incompetence against your first surveyor. You may already have one for poor business practices, but many boards won't look at that unless there is a specific statute violated.
Your 2nd surveyor's opinion will also be important if you decide to sue your first surveyor for negligence.
And of course, an attorney who is well versed in boundary law is essential for any legal action (litigation or mediation) over the boundary or against your first surveyor.
LRDay, post: 396037, member: 571 wrote: It may be past the point of working it out with the neighbor but if the line is uncertain as least as far as a surveyor(s) being able to identify it, a boundary line agreement/adjustment between the neighbors fixing the line may have been the way to solve your problem and may have been the quickest least cost method also.
Thank you Leon and Evan.
I have consulted with the owners of some of the most valuable properties in central Arkansas (Little Rock) and have always suggested an agreement document prior to litigation.
After the owners have gone to the due process expense of contracting 'conflicting' surveys, they should have the ability to agree on their common, established boundary. It is our obligation to provide them with the description of this AGREED BOUNDARY.
Just sayin'
DDSM:clink:
[USER=291]@Nate The Surveyor[/USER]
(Pretty good for an Arkansas surveyor?)
survbob, post: 396178, member: 7572 wrote: Just wanted to point out that in Ohio, you are required to produce a plat for every boundary survey with the client being the only one who is required to get a copy...unless you split an existing parcel.
4733-37-05 Plat of survey. (Ohio Administrative Code)
(A) The surveyor shall prepare a scale drawing of every individual survey, or drawings comprising all of the surveys when they are contiguous, in which the surveyor retraces previously established property lines or establishes new boundaries.(B) A copy of this drawing shall be given to the client. When required, another copy shall be filed with the appropriate public agencies.
This is part of my frustration. We never received any documentation for the initial $2910 that was paid. After the neighbor's attorney sent me a letter demanding I remove the stakes my surveyor set I simply called my surveyor to get the documentation to forward to my attorney. Neither my stepfather or I approved any additional work. I can see paying him an hour or two to locate the pin the neighbors surveyor set this year and paying him another hour to add it to the original drawing, but to be billed for 13 more hours of "CADD time" on the second invoice tells me he never had it drawn up in the first place. I will post the invoices once I get the time to black out all personal info...
eapls2708, post: 396366, member: 589 wrote:
I don't really read anything nefarious that the retired surveyor came out of retirement in order to set the stakes for your neighbor. I can see a reputable retired surveyor doing that to help a friend who needs stakes set before other surveyors could get to it, or if that friend is not in a position to afford to hire another surveyor. It doesn't necessarily mean that the surveyor would alter his survey results to benefit his friend. It's just too easy for another surveyor to be hired and find evidence of bad-faith altering of results, especially when the retired surveyor had previously surveyed your parcel and he knows that there is contention over the line. Even for someone who is dishonest enough to alter results to benefit his client, the risks are too high when there is an ongoing dispute and the other side has or will hire a surveyor.That's potentially bad news for you. The retired surveyor previously surveyed your lot and has now replaced a missing monument and placed stakes on the line for your neighbor. Unless that surveyor is a complete knucklehead, his new points are going to be in agreement with his old survey. He is also apparently familiar with the area. All of which means, not conclusively, but more likely than not, that the retired surveyor is right and your high-dollar guy is wrong.
There is definitely something nefarious going on. The neighbors surveyor is who I initially tried to hire. He refused to do the survey for me citing he is too old. Then once I hire another surveyor he does the survey for my neighbor, who pulled a pin causing me to have to get a new survey, and creates a property line dispute with my surveyor. My surveyor comes back out and confirms that the pin the neighbor's surveyor placed lies 2 ft off the coordinate on the drawing the neighbor's surveyor submitted to the county. He submitted a survey to match up with my neighbor's legal description, but his pin lies 2 ft off of his own coordinate? It just doesn't make sense. He's not just 2.5 ft off my surveyor's line. He's 2 ft off his own boundary line. So I call the County Engineer's office and get one of the younger engineers on the phone. This guy tells me, "Yea I didn't want to approve that when it came through, but its an old boys club around here and my boss pushes through all the crap he submits."
First invoice from last year[GALLERY=media, 25]Screenshot_20161022-030153 by LostInOhio posted Oct 22, 2016 at 3:04 AM[/GALLERY]Second Invoice from this year[GALLERY=media, 26]Screenshot_20161022-030159 by LostInOhio posted Oct 22, 2016 at 3:04 AM[/GALLERY]
