Long day, working in an area of a state I'm licensed, but rarely work in. The deeds department were less than helpful - acting like every question or need for assistance was pulling teeth, yet they had plenty of yuks with all the regulars.
Then going to the state DOT to try to get layout plans, and I was refused anything unless I told them about the project. I explained that it wasn't public knowledge, and that I just wanted survey layout plans, and I was told no, "for liability reasons", unless I told them what I was doing. WTF.
I've never had this happen before. Most DOT's are more than helpful. I even said that the layouts are public record, and he still refused. I'm still amazed that this guy is so empowered and entrenched in his position, that even if I filed a complaint, it'd go nowhere.
I thought these A$$holes worked for us, the public. I guess not.
It really bites when you run into more than one bunch of negativity per day. The workers in the deeds office may have a bunch of regulars who come in and simply help themselves to everything because they already know where it is. Fortunately, I've encountered your situation in the deeds office very rarely.
The DOT problem is something else entirely. They should be extremely helpful at all times and not need specifics as to what you are doing to need their data. Most of my help comes via e-mails these days from either the area office or the State office. The only thing that comes to mind is that they can get very picky about who is working within their rights-of-way and may demand that an application be submitted that asks for a ton of questions about you and your firm. But, that is to get a standing permit to work on their turf. It has nothing to do with why you need to be there.
In CA any requests for DOT maps have to be accompanied by an explicit statement as to whether or not the information is going to be used in litigation against the state. Once that's done, they're generally very helpful.
JPH, post: 332448, member: 6636 wrote: ..I thought these A$$holes worked for us, the public. I guess not.
Use to be that way, not anymore. I've quit arguing the point with the throngs of mindless minions who's leashes are tied to the records cabinets by bureaucrats. I needed some utility (water & sewer) atlas sheets in a local city. I had been told they were available. I was also declined when I requested to see them. The reason?... "We just can't let anybody see these." ... (I fully understand. We don't want ISIS to have intimate knowledge of a sixty year old sanitary sewer system in a thriving metropolis of 2500 people..:pinch:) A quick call to the public works director made everything nicey-nice, I was lucky.
And yes, they are still considered "public" records. But the definition of "public" seems more likely defined by Napoleon from George Orwell's Animal Farm than Merriam-Webster. In some places around here it is standard protocol to submit a written "Request for Records" and then endure the bureaucratic time warp...
The days of walking in somewhere unannounced and asking for a copy of something probably still reside in Mayfield...with Wally and the Beaver, but nowhere else I'm sorry to say.
paden cash, post: 332473, member: 20 wrote: I fully understand. We don't want ISIS to have intimate knowledge of a sixty year old sanitary sewer system in a thriving metropolis of 2500 people..:pinch:
Yup, since 9/11 water and sewer maps (not even detailed plans!) are handed out on a need-to-know basis, when they were publicly available before, because...well...terrorists!
It must be working - there have been no terrorist attacks on the water or sewer since since the policy was implemented. Probably because, without maps, terrorists can't find the fire hydrants or sewer manholes...
JPH, post: 332448, member: 6636 wrote: ....Then going to the state DOT to try to get layout plans, and I was refused anything unless I told them about the project. I explained that it wasn't public knowledge, and that I just wanted survey layout plans, and I was told no, "for liability reasons", unless I told them what I was doing. WTF....
You might just get a standard letter where you just fill in the details of what you want in the future and add a statement that this is not a part of a lawsuit (if it isn't) and sign it and give it to them. (Or email if you have an email address). You might also refer to them as open records. If they help you immediately, good, but if they are somewhat uncooperative, give them the written request. They probably have to respond within a certain amount of time. A complaint to their supervisor might make them have to straighten up and fly right. But the complaint may be toothless if you didn't put it in writing.
Around here they have to respond to a request within 3 days. (that might just mean "responding", but it could take more than three days to find old data sometimes.)
Our DOT has recently gone over to the dark side. I had about 10 minutes worth of field work to locate a few valves ant some paint stripes. I decided to get an "Encroachment Permit" because it is in an area with high DPS traffic and I did not want my crew getting a citation. It took approx. 3 weeks to get the permit - we had to provide some sort of special insurance endorsement form that our insurance company said is exceedingly rare. The work actually took 4 minutes to perform! Next time we'll just do the work and risk the fine...
They want to get real snippy, you could file a Public Information Request (FOIA) and then they have to provide the material or have a darn good reason not to. Of course, they have a set amount of time they are allowed to reply to that request which might give them more time than you want to take.
Alternatively, if your client has any political pull, he could start at the top of the hill and make some "stuff" roll downhill until it gets to the vault monkey.
Andy Nold, post: 332519, member: 7 wrote: They want to get real snippy, you could file a Public Information Request (FOIA) and then they have to provide the material or have a darn good reason not to. Of course, they have a set amount of time they are allowed to reply to that request which might give them more time than you want to take.
Alternatively, if your client has any political pull, he could start at the top of the hill and make some "stuff" roll downhill until it gets to the vault monkey.
The FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) requests only apply to the Federal Gov.
Each state has it's own laws regarding public record requests.
I have not had any luck getting my state to even respond to a request.
I suppose you need a letter written by an attorney to get any traction.
Went to the DOT Records Dept. for some asbuilts. Nobody at the counter so I knocked loudly and witnessed the fellow crawling out from under some shelving in back where he'd built a little bunk for breaktimes, I guess.:-O The George Costanza trick in real life.
Donuts go a long ways with some of these folks.
Jim Frame, post: 332461, member: 10 wrote: In CA any requests for DOT maps have to be accompanied by an explicit statement as to whether or not the information is going to be used in litigation against the state. Once that's done, they're generally very helpful.
That's been my experience. I've worked with the CA DOT in 4 of their districts and had no real problems with any of them, as far as mapping records go.
I do recall a particularly irritating issue with a Local Agency once. I had sent one of my technicians to the County Surveyor's office to do some research of their records. My tech knew what he was doing and had many years of experience in going through old records. So he got there and talked to the person at the counter explaining what he needed to research. The counter person took him back to the records and asked if he needed any help. He didn't and things seemed just fine.
About 15 minutes later, some other employee stopped him and told him that he wasn't allowed to look at those records unless he was a licensed land surveyor. So, being the agreeable person he is, he stopped and immediately called me to let me know of this issue. I made a few calls and spoke to a few people and quite politely explained that my employee was working under my direction and had every reason to be there doing the research. The documents he was researching were a matter of public record and that I didn't see any reason why he should be barred from doing this research whether he was licensed or not. I then politely asked that he be allowed back to finish this research.
The person that had accosted my tech gave me some explanation about how they had "had problems in the past with letting just anyone research the records", but since I had made the call he would "make an exception this time" and he suggested that in the future I call ahead to let them know that someone would be there researching.
Thoroughly irritating. As it was mentioned, these people are there to work for "the public", not the other way around. And I've had some really lousy days before, but it doesn't give me any excuse to not be professional and courteous (assuming that goes both ways, that is).
imaudigger, post: 332530, member: 7286 wrote: The FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) requests only apply to the Federal Gov.
I'm aware of that, thus the parentheses. I suppose we are fortunate to have public information requests in Texas.
But the definition of "public" seems more likely pdefined by Napoleon from George Orwell's Animal Farm than Merriam-Webster.
:good:
You have just met the people behind the scenes that think they hold a position that is controlling progress.
The ones that believe that nothing gets done without their approval.
People that want to gain from anything that happens in their neighborhood and yours.
These people have the same philosophy that kings and queens have had for centuries in thinking like they are privileged and everything is at their feet and they should profit from all of it.
Bureaucrat - an official in a government department, in particular one perceived as being concerned with procedural correctness at the expense of people's needs.
They don't have the right to know about your project.
As surveyor, you are gathering information and resources to locate and restore boundaries, nothing more.
All the information in their hands are public records and have been paid for by tax dollars and they can only charge you a reasonable fee for making copies of the material.
Andy Nold has the solution, file thru the Freedom of Information Act for the Federal documents and go up the ladder for the State documents and have an attorney draft a letter requesting the local documents.
Most of the DOT r/w information in Texas is available as a download from the state's website.
When their info is missing some details, the answer can be bound in the deed records.
As has been said, FOIA is a federal thing. I assumed there was something similar on the state/local level, but I'm only familiar with the rules for the Public Information Act in Texas. Other states may not have the same rules.
Interesting note, my coworker needed row maps that were not on the TxDOT website. The district he contacted asked him to file a PIA Request to get the copies. That seems a little ludicrous. I forget which district it was. Why do we have to have all the BS formality, wax seals, red tape and powdered wigs. It's public record, paid for. Just send the dang map.
Andy Nold, post: 332713, member: 7 wrote: PIA Request
PAIN IN the ASS Request.
