Kent McMillan, post: 424960, member: 3 wrote: Do you describe in any detail what will constitute "major boundary problems" or just assume that your client will rely upon you to make that determination?
I generally just tell people verbally examples of types of issues that could be encountered, but keep the statement general, so I can use it how and when I feel necessary. Could I abuse this if I was unethical? Of course. But one could abuse virtually any contract structure.
roger_LS, post: 424961, member: 11550 wrote: I generally just tell people verbally examples of types of issues that could be encountered, but keep the statement general, so I can use it how and when I feel necessary. Could I abuse this if I was unethical? Of course. But one could abuse virtually any contract structure.
So, really you're just giving them a preliminary estimate of what you want to bill them for the work, but without telling them the rate at which you figure your fees? I trust we all recall the the entire point of professional ethics is the fundamental inequality of understanding of the full nature of the service that typically exists between a professional and his or her clients.
Licensing laws and rules generally do not include language that dictates how a licensee chooses to price their professional services. That's a business decision. Whether you think it is ethical or not to provide a fixed fee is only relevant to how you wish to do business. If others choose to provide fees in another manner, that is their decision which doesn't require approval by you or any other licensee.
Kent, maybe Texas laws are different in this respect. I would be surprised if they were. The only way you will know for sure is to request an opinion from your surveying board on whether the laws and rules you mention dictate fixed fee.
Ric Moore, post: 424964, member: 731 wrote: Licensing laws and rules generally do not include language that dictates how a licensee chooses to price their professional services. That's a business decision. Whether you think it is ethical or not to provide a fixed fee is only relevant to how you wish to do business. If others choose to provide fees in another manner, that is their decision which doesn't require approval by you or any other licensee.
Kent, maybe Texas laws are different in this respect. I would be surprised if they were. The only way you will know for sure is to request an opinion from your surveying board on whether the laws and rules you mention dictate fixed fee.
Ric:
I quoted above the applicable statute in Texas that bars the ability of the Texas licensing board, the TBPLS, to adopt any rule prohibiting competitive bidding. So, a logical extension of that is that fixed-fee pricing is okay since that's what competitive bidding is based upon.
However, the conflict of interest rules that the TBPLS has adopted would indicate that offering to provide a service on certain terms that would be reasonably expected to have an adverse effect upon the licensee's judgment are contrary to the purpose of the profession. In other words, the push-me-pull-you dynamic is that (a) the profession is licensed for various purposes that are not served by (b) having practitioners entangle themselves in arrangements that work against their client's informed interests (and those of various members of the public) that extend beyond cheap and quick.
Kent McMillan, post: 424967, member: 3 wrote: Ric:
I quoted above the applicable statute in Texas that bars the ability of the Texas licensing board, the TBPLS, to adopt any rule prohibiting competitive bidding. So, a logical extension of that is that fixed-fee pricing is okay since that's what competitive bidding is based upon.
However, the conflict of interest rules that the TBPLS has adopted would indicate that offering to provide a service on certain terms that would be reasonably expected to have an adverse effect upon the licensee's judgment are contrary to the purpose of the profession. In other words, the push-me-pull-you dynamic is that (a) the profession is licensed for various purposes that are not served by (b) having practitioners entangle themselves in arrangements that work against their client's informed interests (and those of various members of the public) that extend beyond cheap and quick.
I believe I understand the position you have in concept. You're advocating that a licensee is obligated to provide a well reasoned fee to the public. That's admirable and understandable. Whether the rules discourage "cheap and quick" proposals...maybe. Whether the rules prohibit "cheap and quick" proposals...I don't think it does any more than it prohibits "expensive and well reasoned" proposals. If someone wishes to low ball fees, that can be just as easily accomplished by fixed fee as it can be an hourly rate structure.
Ric Moore, post: 424970, member: 731 wrote: I believe I understand the position you have in concept. You're advocating that a licensee is obligated to provide a well reasoned fee to the public. That's admirable and understandable. Whether the rules discourage "cheap and quick" proposals...maybe. Whether the rules prohibit "cheap and quick" proposals...I don't think it does any more than it prohibits "expensive and well reasoned" proposals. If someone wishes to low ball fees, that can be just as easily accomplished by fixed fee as it can be an hourly rate structure.
I'd put it a bit differently. The applicable categories are:
- Rational Expectations,
- Conscientious Service, and
- Sustainable Profession.
Rational Expectations
The marketplace in which land surveying services are offered functions best when there is transparency that makes a rational transaction possible. By "rational transaction" what I mean is that the buyer understands what is to be delivered and makes his or her decisions on that basis. It also means that the seller (the surveyor, in this case) has agreed to deliver what the buyer thinks he or she is purchasing.
Transparency facilitates that, i.e. the surveyor explaining in terms intelligible to the client (or at least a layperson of normal intelligence) what is to be done, what won't be done that a client might reasonably be expected to think will be, and what "the known unknowns" are, to use a famous phrase from other misadventures.
Conscientious Service :
However, the nature of the delivery of contingent professional services, such as those of land surveyors, which depend upon factors yet to be discovered, means that even approximating the effort necessary to provide the service can be elusive. Some licensees handle that by quoting high prices that they feel certain are entirely adequate for most contingencies, but with an escape clause under which they may elect to inform the client that the high price they intially quoted won't be sufficient for some reason. In my opinion, the applicable criterion for judging the sufficiency of any professional service is what another professional with knowledge of the circumstances before the parties would reasonable expect in the way of performance. Obviously, licensing boards have generally attempted to codify those expectations, but the idea is the same.
The potential of what is in effect fixed-fee bidding to completely undercut any resemblance to conscientious service seems to me to be demonstrated to excess in the marketplace for services as it has existed for some years now.
Sustainable Profession :
The last element is one with systemic implications. I trust that most surveyors will agree that land surveying serves an important function in the land ownership system and that anything that cripples the profession is an attack on a larger societal value that the profession was organized to serve in the first place. Surveyors encouraging practices that have the effect of undercutting the sustainability of the profession are acting against the ethos of the profession, even though some specific ethical prohibition may not yet exist.
And I'd add that the fundamental underlying fact of the transaction is the typical gross inequality of the abilites of the parties to evaluate the real nature of the service provided. The typical client simply isn't sophisticated enough to know whether some service has been competently rendered or not. That fact gives the service provider a power that is inherently problematic.
Kent McMillan, post: 424978, member: 3 wrote: And I'd add that the fundamental underlying fact of the transaction is the typical gross inequality of the abilities of the parties to evaluate the real nature of the service provided. The typical client simply isn't sophisticated enough to know whether some service has been competently rendered or not. That fact gives the service provider a power that is inherently problematic.
Your perspective here is hilarious. I realize you probably imagine that your clients haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about. I'm betting your clients are probably left with an impression you think them simpletons with your veiled condescension. Although a good number of people may be ignorant of a specific subject, they all can be educated as to the nature of a surveyor's work. The attitude that a "typical client simply isn't sophisticated enough to know whether some service has been competently rendered or not" is a prejudiced overstatement. Have you developed this attitude simply because you lack the skill set to adequately explain what it is for which you are charging a client?
I've worked for some dumb sunsabitches over the years. But every one of them has understood the process of record and physical research, professional contemplation and the establishment and monumentation of their boundary after I explained it to them in language they can understand. A true professional must possess the communicative skills necessary to explain to any client the process for which they are paying. And we owe it to our clientele to verify this understanding has been attained. And after the client understands the surveyor's tasks, they also need to be secure in the fact their property (AND money) is in good and competent hands. I would think it difficult, if not close to impossible, to provide a client this understanding and security if you feel they are nothing but unsophisticated dumbasses. I hate to break it to you at this late date amigo, but people that have to work to understand something are far more sensitive to an arrogant or condescending attitude than you may think. Even Quasimodo could tell when someone was talking down to him. I'd like to believe a superior intellect is totally useless unless bridled with understanding and compassion for a fellow man.
I'm maybe inclined to believe your remark "That fact gives the service provider a power that is inherently problematic" may just be true in your case only. But then assuming your client is "in the dark and will remain there" may just provide you with the oh-so-necessary rationale required to operate with such a poor communication skillset.
When a client asks, "What am I paying for?" Do you reply, "You're incapable of understanding. But trust me, I have you're unsophisticated interests at heart" ? If you're in a conversation with someone you feel isn't "sophisticated enough" to understand what you're saying; you are probably not the only one in the conversation that feels the other is stupid.
From your self-described attitude toward your clientele I'm thinking your client contact skills might be something along the lines of being able to piss off a hungry elephant with only a handful of warm roasted and salted peanuts.... 😉
paden cash, post: 424983, member: 20 wrote: I realize you probably imagine that your clients haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about. I'm betting your clients are probably left with an impression you think them simpletons with your veiled condescension. Although a good number of people may be ignorant of a specific subject, they all can be educated as to the nature of a surveyor's work. The attitude that a "typical client simply isn't sophisticated enough to know whether some service has been competently rendered or not" is a prejudiced overstatement. Have you developed this attitude simply because you lack the skill set to adequately explain what it is for which you are charging a client?
When you consider that most clients can't even read a survey map or a written description, what do you imagine to be the basis by which a client would determine whether a service has been competently performed or not? Would it be that their truck was clean or that none of them had the furtive, hunted look that ends up on the walls of Post Offices across Oklahoma?
It may be a Texas thing, but there is quite a bit to land surveying beyond just some spray paint on sidewalks or road pavements. Novel thought, I know, but true nonetheless in Texas.
Kent McMillan, post: 424820, member: 3 wrote: I see the contrary evidence with such regularity that it is virtually a Law of the Universe that unless a surveyor charges a sufficient fee, lots of bad stuff happens.
😉
I have a question.?ÿ I was hoping to keep it private, but I guess as a new member, I am not allowed to send messages yet.?ÿ First off, I am not sure I set my account up correctly. Want to make it clear that I am not an RPLS, but a Party Chief for the last 17 years with the company I am working for.?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ I am not going to name the company unless it becomes absolutely necessary, because I am not petty enough to start smearing someones name unless really pushed to do so, and have good cause.
Anyway, I can't seem to find my answer online, and found this link while trying to do so.?ÿ My question involves what I believe to be a professional ethics violation.?ÿ For several years now, the owner of the company I work for has more or less stepped aside and let the new RPLS take over and start running the show, because the owner who is also an RPLS is planning to retire and sell the company to the new guy.?ÿ I am discovering that the new boss is really lacking in honesty and integrity, and he is absolutely hostile about anything that doesn't work according to what he thinks is a well thought out master plan, though he spent a minimum amount of time in the field to experience some of the problems that arise, and how to deal with them.?ÿ To the point that I am just about ready to report him to the board, seek legal advice, and then begin my search for a new job.?ÿ He lies, he uses others names to get things his way, he cheats the clients on a regular basis.?ÿ An example would be, send us to a job to do what should be 2 hours of work, but make us sit there for 8 hours so he can charge them the full day.?ÿ Now the clients are starting to catch on, and giving other companies the work, which is putting us employees in jeopardy of having to find new jobs.?ÿ He has also on several occasions threatened our job, if we didn't stay and work the extra hour, but without getting compensated for that extra hour in the form of OT or bonuses or anything to make up for it.
My question boils down to, I know what he is doing is definitely unethical, dishonest as well as immoral, and illegal as for the OT, but is it a "professional ethics" violation??ÿ
As I stated earlier, I am not a petty person.?ÿ I do not want to just go reporting him, without researching first, and giving him the opportunity to correct his ways. I am an honest person, and I do not like being forced into a situation that makes me look like a dishonest person.?ÿ I would rather get fired, then tarnish the good reputation I have built over the years.?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ
Can you help me answer my question??ÿ Or at least a link to where I can find what I am looking for??ÿ I'm not a youngster any longer, and it is getting harder to find a new and better job when you have the experience I have, due to my age.?ÿ I am feeling a bit trapped into a corner.
Thank you in advance for any help, or pointing me in the right direction.
@Wendell?ÿ how did a thread with its most recent post from last April get on top of the list of "Recent Posts" ?
Of course, my reply will assure that it is there, but I'm mystified as to why it made the list for me to reply to.
Surveying Ethics and Conflicts of Interest ?ÿ
By Kent McMillan 9 months?ÿ ago ?ÿ|?ÿ Last Post: 48 years?ÿ ago
Whoever put up the Twilight Zone pic in the thread on the mystery spot should do so here as well.
Whoever put up the Twilight Zone pic in the thread on the mystery spot should do so here as well.
I was thinking the same thing.
Or:
I worked for an engineer, RIP, for six years, long ago. the engineer was president of the company, so he had to approve all survey bills. He was a highly regarded professional, and expected the best, and as an engineer, did very good work. Like some engineers, he did not see why surveying took so long. Why couldn't we find the pins we needed? What's so hard about setting four corners of a simple square property? why can't we predict how long it will take to find a quarter of a section? etc. etc. No matter what the situation was, he expected the highest of standards from the survey department.?ÿ
For six years, I prepared bills based on hourly rates, made estimates, researched, and to the best of my ability, never cut corners.?ÿ
And you know what, all of this taught me some really bad habits: I found myself thinking about CUTTING CORNERS just so this guy would be happ.
For six years, I would get a call from the engineer twice a month, and we would spend 1 or 2 hours discussing my bills (or, more specifically, my hours). For six years, I explained to a renowned professional what I did, hour after hour, and why, while he, the boss, was sure in his head that I was just slow, lazy, and actually went out there and chose to waste my time all day, every day, when it was sure to him that everything I said I did could have been done in about 1/10 the time by any serious professional. For six years, this boss forced me into lowering the time on my bills before he would approve them.?ÿ
I spent more time explaining to the boss what surveyors did, and why, than I did getting work done (or so it seemed). For six years, this boss never once could fathom why I would have the gall and audacity to try to charge to much time for doing so little. I also met a few clients that refused to pay for roughly the same reason.?ÿ
@Wendell?ÿ how did a thread with its most recent post from last April get on top of the list of "Recent Posts" ?
Of course, my reply will assure that it is there, but I'm mystified as to why it made the list for me to reply to.
Surveying Ethics and Conflicts of Interest ?ÿ
By Kent McMillan 9 months?ÿ ago ?ÿ|?ÿ Last Post: 48 years?ÿ ago
Apparently it's a bug with unapproved posts. A new user (see above) posted a new reply, but new users are required to have their first post moderated by yours truly. This is a security measure to protect us all from spammers and scammers. Now that I've approved his post, you should see it. Prior to approval, I could see it here in the thread but you couldn't -- so the Recent Posts function must've been a little confused by that.
Well, I would assume you have a good relationship with your previous boss both business and personal. If he still has a stake in the operation I would would discuss your observations and concerns with him. I am sure that they would not want such activities representing their legacy. If there is not luck there, then I would simply draft a letter of concern and send it to the board. Depending on what State you are in the Board could act quickly or not at all. Regardless, if a notice is sent to that RPLS (Texas I assume) that a complaint or request to investigate has been opened up against him then you should see changes rather quickly.
My advice would be to discuss with the original owner, get your resume together and call your competition and look for another job.?ÿ
?ÿ
[?ÿ .?ÿ .?ÿ .?ÿ ] He has also on several occasions threatened our job, if we didn't stay and work the extra hour, but without getting compensated for that extra hour in the form of OT or bonuses or anything to make up for it. [?ÿ .?ÿ .?ÿ .?ÿ ]
Totally illegal; that's called wage theft.?ÿ You can contact your State's Labor Board (Labor Commissioner's office) for information on how to file a wage claim. If your employer discriminates or retaliates against you in any manner whatsoever, for example, he discharges you because you file a wage claim or threaten to file a wage claim with the Labor Commissioner, you can?ÿfile a discrimination/retaliation complaint?ÿwith the Labor Commissioner's Office.?ÿ
OTOH I've been in situations where a 9th hour of work completes the job at a remote site and just taken a paid hour off later as compensation.?ÿ Technically I'm breaking the law by doing so.?ÿ "An employee cannot waive his or her right to overtime compensation [?ÿ .?ÿ .?ÿ .?ÿ ]."?ÿ But since my boss was also my good friend and fishing buddy?ÿ we both bent the law a bit because driving back to the site the following day for one hour's work?ÿ would have broken the budget.
BTW the Labor Board at least in this State is the real deal; they'll pursue the issue like a pit bull and are your advocate.?ÿ If you want to do the world some good and nail this guy, report a successful Labor Board claim to the State Department of Licensing, which I suspect will have to act with a suspension/revocation of his license, a clear ethics violation.
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