I'm sure it's just me, but it never ceases to amaze me how some surveyors consider CAD files to be the equivalent of paper copies of maps. I don't pass out CAD drawing files of boundary survey maps, but don't mind giving a paper copy or a pdf in most cases.
I got a call today from a local surveyor who wanted to have the CAD file of a map I'd made about nine years ago of a remarkably complicated survey of a postage-stamp-sized parcel of land that was about to have 6,000 square feet of new construction shoehorned onto it. It's the sort of thing I'd expect of an architect, not a surveyor.
This is a case where the boundary of the parcel as determined by my survey is described in great detail in the public record, including explanatory notes. The metes and bounds description gives +/-5mm coordinates in the Texas Coordinate System of 1983, so it's not as if finding any of the monuments described ought to be a challenge.
The other surveyor told me he was working for a company that had been hired to do various tasks of construction surveying on the site and that was what rang all the alarm bells, considering how tight the site is, how expensive mistakes will potentially be, and the fact that both of the owners are attorneys. I would ordinarily assume that any surveyor hired to lay out construction and produce as-builts in relation to the parcel boundary would also do an adequate amount of surveying to actually determine where the boundary is and survey his or her own control points. I can mainly see a potential for inappropriate use of the digital data to try to shortcut what needs to be done.
What did I miss?
The favorite trick with engineers in early CAD days was that they would cad draw the plan then to finesse their design layout of a road, say for example for kerb plan they would make minor changes to the DIMENSIONS on the plan AND LEAVE the line work as originally plotted ! THEIR LOGIC the changes were too small to notice on the paper plot. BUT AS I WOULD SAY TO THEM HUGE in the real position in the construction site!
The engineering proprietor was a great engineer, however he had zero appreciation of the situation of what his staff were doing as he was computer illiterate.
In the surveying world if I hand out any electronic plan in CAD format then add note to plan to say that the position of boundary reference marks and or boundary occupation may be schematic as real plot position could be impractical to view on a plot. The bearing and distance dimensions fixing the corner.
I suspect that there are many surveyors who are also not aware of this scenario.
RADU
> In the surveying world if I hand out any electronic plan in CAD format then add note to plan to say that the position of boundary reference marks and or boundary occupation may be schematic as real plot position could be impractical to view on a plot.
Yes, most survey maps will have minor exaggerations of scale here and there for clarity, such as where boundary markers are too close together to plot as distinct things at the scale of the maps. My rule of thumb is that any time I feel the need to write an elaborate disclaimer about a survey product in order to limit liability from misuse, that is a warning light that should lead me to wonder whether I ought to be providing the information in that form at all.
Just draw a good one, save as a copy, make it really crappy, but have the drawing annotated right....works like a charm. No one will want your drawings. Then you could use "You're better off just coming off my recorded map son!"
Also, you could make up some sort of CAD File Transfer Agreement that you both sign. Obviously you could add more info...this was one I got from an engineer.
Terms and Conditions
On approval of our client, ________(your company) is providing the requested CAD files. By this transaction we place certain limitations:
- Due to the potential that the information set forth on the electronic media (file) can be modified, unintentionally or otherwise, we will remove all indications of its origin. The requesting party will acknowledge the following:
1. The use of the provided electronic media is for the convenience of the user only, and will be at the user’s sole risk and without any liability or legal exposure to ____________(your company).
2. The use of the provided media shall not be construed as removing the necessity of obtaining appropriate field measurements nor of limiting requirements for conformity with other documentation or any other requirements of the contract documents or specifications. Information contained on the disk is in no way guaranteed to match the latest issued contract document information.
The problem is no different from hard copy days when realtors would photocopy "the map", strategically omitting scale , all reference to disclaimers and legend AND of course the surveyor and their references.
Like the internet once an image is posted you lose ALL control on how it is posted or "fiddled with"
CAD drawings suffer the same fate .
I would suggest in crude terms an analogy is that the product from a doss-house could provide you with good value , but highly likely with the potential of serious on going problems...
RADU
Why wouldn't you give another professional the CAD file?
> Why wouldn't you give another professional the CAD file?
Well, with me the cadd file is proprietary unless specified otherwise in contract (and then only after signing a electronic release form). Let the other surveyor draw his own map and do is own surveying, maybe then he will raise his prices to a proper level. Are you going to receive compensation from the other surveyor for him saving time and money on drawing the plan?
Kent is correct, let the other guy do his own work.
Jim Vianna
Wasn't this settled in the 90's
I think somewhere along the way you missed why you were hired to to begin with. The client hired you to produce a product that he could use to improve his property. Any and all materials used to put this product together he paid for. (please spare me any squawk about copyrights! They sound so childish). If the product is as beneficial as claimed, why would you not want to share the most valuable portion of it? It has been a while since I had to overlay a 1" = 100' survey over an engineer's plan on the light table. Please don't have me drag the light table out again if I have to work on a project in West Texas! Here in Houston it is accepted practice that we share the CAD files. We feel our highest priority is to the client and his project. Not our silly egos.
God Bless Houston, Texas!
>
> What did I miss?
you missed the part that you are part of a team that works together to complete a project.
I'm also guessing that your map probably has so many bells and whistles on it that the light table will have trouble pushing any light through the plat.
Nine years ago?
Are you SURE you didn't HAND DRAW that map? After all, that was a long time ago.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't have a problem with sharing with architects and engineers, but other surveyors?
Someone above mentioned that Kent was hired to perform a service. That service was completed and paid for NINE YEARS ago. He did his job.
Wasn't the new surveyor hired TODAY to complete a service, too?
I wouldn't give it.
Target locked
I have been Cad drafting my survey plans since 1990!
RADU
"considering how tight the site is, how expensive mistakes will potentially be"
Knowing that, It is revealing that you still would not assist a fellow surveyor. I have never understood why some view other surveyors as "competition" rather than "colleagues".
> Why wouldn't you give another professional the CAD file?
That's the real question right there, Joe.
While many surveyors work themselves into a frenzy trying to hide their work under their desk or to "protect" themselves from "liability" over work they've done, the potential value of their work is entirely wasted.
Why not, instead, look at your survey product as precisely that: a product. I enjoy opportunities to provide products to clients. In fact, that's where most of us make our money, if I'm understanding the profession correctly.
Do you "give" the product away? Absolutely not. But the client already paid for the product. Not necessarily true. If he did, he'd already have it. The reason they need the product (the cad file) is for an entirely different reason and use than the survey product was initially provided. The cad file is a different product.
The cad file is an entirely new product for and entirely different reason. I'll need to generate the product to meet the needs of the client. What information do they need? What are the intended uses of the information? What layering standard will they need? All of those questions have answers that will allow me to prepare an electronic file that they will be able to incorporate into their project and that will add value to their project and my pocket.
Destroying the value of the cad file by tweaking the lines makes a worthless product that fails to meet their needs. $0 in that pocket. Attempting to cover yourself by adding all sorts of disclaimers to the product, openly admitting that the product won't be and isn't intended to meet their needs. $0 in that pocket as well. In fact, both methods are more likely to cause errors from their misuse which will result in everyone in the project getting the claim notice with their name on it. Disclaimers won't keep you out of the litigation. They don't provide a "get out of jail free card."
The way to best insure that you are protected from liability is to provide a product that will meet everyone's needs in a way that they can use it without "tweaking" it. Lock layers that can't be changed. Create blocks and polylines that take asserted effort to modify. And make certain you keep the original electronic copy for comparison.
Your safest and surest way to respond to a request for your cad file is to engage yourself under contract to provide the service. Define the clients needs, then provide the service. You'll become a valuable part of the team and you'll make money for a service well done.
JBS
I'm with Kent here. This isn't about colleague v competition. It's all about liability. After nine years there's no telling what's changed on that site. And the owners are both attorneys. Red flags a-flyin'! Let the new guy take Kent's public record survey and then do his own work.
In our experience, sharing of CAD drawings saves time, helps prevent errors, and is a very easy way to create more value for the client. Most importantly, it also helps eliminate trips to the courtroom, and we don't like going to court. People who view their drawings as "proprietary" often create a lot of problems for others.
Although, on the flip side, widespread sharing of drawings also seems to lead to lower-quality plans, which are so inferior and missing so much information that they cannot be used to construct the project WITHOUT the CAD drawings. This is really bad, but we're seeing it more and more, from a lot of really big companies.
I have been known to give CAD drawings of projects, as well as coordinate files of control points to those doing the layout on our projects. The BIG IF is that I must know the surveyor well (and know that he is ethical and returns the favor) and let him know that IF he finds any discrepancy that I am the FIRST call he is to make. I may have just been lucky, in over 20 years I have never had any problems. In preparing miles of right of way and easement drawings it sure is nice to be able to insert a drawing instead of having to hand punch hundreds of bearings and distances (with its inherent opportunity to "fat finger").
With all that being said it is certainly considered on a case by case basis and I reserve the right to refuse to hand over any electronic file (unless contactually obligated).
Andy
My policy resembles Andy's. In general the attitude around here is "surveyors help each other."
> >
> > What did I miss?
>
> you missed the part that you are part of a team that works together to complete a project.
Uh, no. That's the whole point. In this case I'm not under contract to provide services. I was retained nine years ago to make a survey of the property and improvements prior to purchase. The products of my services in connection with that sale were:
a) a very good metes and bounds description that was used to convey the property,
b) a surveyor's report that was prepared to accompany the map, and
c) a map consisting of three sheets representing the boundaries and improvements of the parcel and its vicinity.
So, now nine years later here is a surveying company that has been hired to do some construction surveying for a couple of million dollars worth of improvements. The odds are very good that there will be a train wreck. You want to buy yourself a ticket on that train why?
> Maybe it's just me, but I don't have a problem with sharing with architects and engineers, but other surveyors?
I don't mind at all sharing information with other surveyors, but definitely not CAD files. The potential for their abuse is simply too great in a way that is non-existent for hardcopy maps, reports, and even other digital data such as coordinate files.
> Someone above mentioned that Kent was hired to perform a service. That service was completed and paid for NINE YEARS ago. He did his job.
Yes, precisely. The survey was made in connection with the purchase of the property. It wasn't a maintenance contract.
> Wasn't the new surveyor hired TODAY to complete a service, too?
Yes, supposedly they were. They were looking for a shortcut that no careful surveyor I know would take.
