Statewide parcel map

So How Accurate Do They Think It Will Be ?

Wisconsin has North, Central and South SPC zones and is split East/West in UTM zones 15 and 16.

Then there is the Wisconsin Transverse Mercator system, the Wisconsin County Coordinate systems and now the Wisconsin Coordinate Reference Systems (also county based, 72 counties in 59 county systems).

It appears it is their intent to comingle coordinates from different systems rather indescriminently.

It is highly doubful that one could determine an incorrect reference to one of these systems, so as far as surveying goes, "Lots of Luck".

Paul in PA

So How Accurate Do They Think It Will Be ?

A statewide GIS will likely (should be) set up on UTM zones, not state plane. This is only one small opportunity surveyors have in unifying the system instead of standing back with no input at all.

Accuracy to a GIS map simply means that all the parcels are shown in their approximate location and configuration. It's not a survey map intended to depict the boundaries with precision.

We surveyors need to either understand the benefits of GIS and decide how we can help determine the outcome, or we need to go sell shoes for thrills.

JBS

> I am curious how Wisconsin surveyors will react to the plan. Will they look at it as an opportunity for surveyors to lead? Or will it be fought at every step until they are followers complaining about how poorly it was designed?
>
Excellent approach, linebender. This is a huge opportunity for land surveyors to get involved with the GIS parcel layer from the ground up. There are huge benefits that the survey community can get from such a parcel database.

One of the most important elements for the surveyors to get across is the end result. It's a GIS system, so it's not intended for precision, it's intended for accuracy and it's best function is the ability to link the underlying data to the parcel map.

What is the underlying data? Survey control; right click and up pops the link to the control information. Recorded subdivision plats; right click and up pops the plat. Survey history; right click and up pops the survey. Deeds; right click .... Right of way surveys; right click .... Highway plans; right click ....

Every one of those documents must be handled by someone to build the system. Every one of those documents becomes immediately available as long as it has been scanned, housed, and linked. That's the ultimate benefit of a GIS parcel layer!

We need to quit expecting survey-quality precision in a parcel map and start thinking about the benefits of access to parcel information.

> The Department of Administration will be responsible for an implementation plan to create the state parcel map. During this planning process, we will seek input from land information officers, register of deeds, state agency GIS staff, and other stakeholders. We look forward to working with you on this important initiative!
Our state GIS mapping is headed by a licensed surveyor who got involved early on in its development. The RTN network, corner records and (hopefully) more information in the future is only an idea away from reality.

Check out the AGRC website for the vast array of information that has been made available. FOR FREE!!

Linebender is right. Are the surveyors going to complain about how poorly it was designed, or help with the design?

JBS

Wisconsin Transverse Mercator

is a compromise of UTM zones 15 and 16.

Also to be considered is the National Address System.

Paul in PA

I see this a slightly differently JBS but you make great points, this appears to me to be the first large salvo in a push for a national cadastre. This database is inevitable as their are major players pushing for it. These players do not really understand the system and all the parts to it but they are pushing hard. GIS folks from everywhere are pushing for it. This will create huge opportunities for surveyors. The system will begin with the statewide databases which will be melded together via standard techniques to form a national gis layer. There will be many problems at this point and a call to improve accuracy and for the federal government to fund the program fully. At this point they will create the national parcel data registry and have a system in place to survey and register land with title being insured by the government ( a Torrens type system) This system is already being put in place on a state by state basis. Read the NC general Statutes on Land Registration (Chapter 43). Note that once a parcel is registered it is not subject to adverse possession and the title is guaranteed by the state. If anyone has any information on land registration in their state, I would love to hear from you. This is perhaps the biggest opportunity for surveyors since the PLSS.

Adverse Possession Per A GIS Coordinate System ?

One has to first assume that all coordinate calculations were done in the proper system and conversions made in the proper order. Wisconsin currently has about 150 systems in use. Who is going to check it and what can they certify to? Sorry a $5 transfer fee will not cover it, neither would a $50 fee, possibly $500 would be enough.

If a parcel's coordinates are somehow wrong how can a person know that his physical land is being possessed "in the cloud"?

It might work if every corner pin had an id chip attached. $2500 fine for moving or removing it. Future surveyors could then walk around with their Dick Tracy wristwatch reading the marker id and coordinate data as a utility meter reader would and then compare same against current GPS. Of course that wristwatch software could recognize all 150 systems and seemlessly switch between them.

To establish possession they would need record coordinates far enough in the past to establish the time. So how secure is that electronic data?

Lots of forseeable problems.

Paul in PA

> Governor’s GIS Initiative to Create a Statewide Digital Parcel Map
Oregon has had such a map for years (www.ormap.org). I always wished Washington had something like it. I really miss it here in Oklahoma. Some individual counties here have something like it, many don't. It just can't be efficient to have all these individual counties all going off in their own directions. It certainly makes sense to have such a thing and it makes sense to have organization at the statewide level.

Accuracy ?

Idividual county systems in Wisconsin range from 1:20,000 to 1:50,000 accuracy.

The statewide system might be 1:2,000. There is significant dropoff in accuracy with elevation differences. How many users are going to include elevation data?

Paul in PA

Oregon has done this successfully. It was a unified effort that included input and involvement from the Land Surveyor community. We have 2 state plane zones and 2 UTM zones. A single zone was created for the entire state. This zone is called Oregon Lambert and is used primarily for mapping and analysis of statewide issues for example a statewide parcel map. It took several years to develop the formats and standards to be used by each county for submission to the parcel map. State Plane is still used by counties for local issues and the SP coordinates are easily reprojected to the Oregon Lambert projection for use in state wide concerns. We have also adopted about 22 Low Distortion Projections around the state. All the systems are playing nice with each other.

The best thing Land Surveyors can do is get involved because you won't like the out come if you don't.

Accuracy ?

> The statewide system might be 1:2,000. There is significant dropoff in accuracy with elevation differences. How many users are going to include elevation data?
It's GIS data. Not very precise. Nothing wrong with that as long as you don't try to use the data inappropriately.

The fact that some people will misuse the data is no reason not to create a useful database.

No, GIS Is just an index map

that can link to various other data.

That data might include a registration system that deals with title registration and therefore prevents adverse possession.

Nothing about it controls boundaries, so the coordinates only have to be good enough to identify which parcel is which, not where the lines are between them.

"Note that once a parcel is registered it is not subject to adverse possession and the title is guaranteed by the state."

I agree with that statement and here is the reason from my viewpoint it will take a long time for this to occur. It will eliminate the need for one of the biggest parasites in the American real estate industry, title insurance. And who has the money, you guessed it right, the title insurance companies.

Surveyors should be pushing with everything they can for the parcel layer in the GIS and then for it all to be surveyed to make it accurate. Of course once all the surveying work is done then the need for repetitive surveys would be eliminated (another inefficiency that should be eliminated). And the surveying that needs to be done is not just the math but the legal sorting out of where the established boundaries are. Heck, the GIS can do the math just fine and show there is a mess so land surveyors need to step up and apply the law to boundaries and not just be doing another stupid math exercise. That's what a GIS can't do and that is properly apply the law. This should be the domain of a land surveyor.

I think land surveyors may be reluctant to advocate for a job that will eventually eliminate much of what they now do. You can either be part of the steamroller or part of the road. If surveyors do not step up they are going to be left out. The US needs this to be done for the benefit of all so let's get behind it before they decide someone else will do it.

No, GIS Is just an index map

that is true today Bill but it will not be in the future, the national cadastre will DEFINE the boundaries of surveyed parcels,once the survey has been approved and incorporated into the registry. It is coming, though I cannot predict if I will be around to see it.

So How Accurate Do They Think It Will Be ?

What I want to see is accurate geodetic coordinates on the corners. After all that is the basis for whatever projection used. Once inside a GIS you can change projections as easy as your shirt.

Thats true LRD, it will definitely take years to survey the parcels, but there is an interim step that is beginning now, a national gis and then registering individual parcels with separate layers for surveyed/non-surveyed parcels. What is likely to happen is state registration of parcels and then acceptance into a national program which will take over from there. The technology is here and we will see a national gis within the next few years. If it includes a national registry, it will be the largest boom to surveying ever.

Montana has one-if a state that large can put one together any state should be able to. It's been almost ten years that I've been using it.

Utah is already working on the parcel layers and a lot has been done. At the same time we are working on the framework layer the PLSS (getting accurate coordinates on the PLSS corners). So it has all been thought out and we are moving forward. There is a lot of work to be done to make it all accurate. If the funding ever busts loose to get this done properly we will all be swamped with work. Let's just not be stupid and let this opportunity be lost and bitch on the sidelines watching someone else do the work.

If the data encompassed by the database becomes too large then the data retrieval becomes sloooooow and manipulating the data becomes cumbersome, Think FEMA.

Also I can approach my county level GIS personnel and they will (sometimes) listen to and implement my suggestions.

So How Accurate Do YOU Think It Will Be ?

Accurate?

I don't think that's the point of doing this; a state wide parcel data base. Of course it won't be 100% accurate. But, it will allow those inaccuracies to be found and rectified; that is if surveyors are allowed to be the custodians of this system.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; they are already doing this in British Columbia...

LTSA

And it is working quite well...:-)