With the looming threat of Irma in the Atlantic and the recent disaster in Texas it seems this may be relevant and it would be interesting to see what the wise folks here have to say on the subject.
To start, a good GPS network seems like the obvious solution solving a problem where control could be wiped away by natural disaster, however what about total blocks that are "gone" without any GPS control? Who is responsible for re-establishing the location of the block, subdivision, or individual parcel? The first guy to track down the location of one of the above mentioned?
Good control points should be firmly set in place at or below grade, so in reality minimal changes in boundaries should be seen depending on the type of phenomenon at play. However, given a large flood or storm surge as with major hurricanes, and changes in water boundaries that are accompanied by wash outs or inlets enlarged by the water flow what would be your opinion of the boundaries affected? Given that accretion and the likes over time have changed boundaries substantially, in the event of a significant change at one time, is the boundary where it was prior to disaster, would new boundaries need to be established, or as is usually the case it would depend on the situation and reason for survey?
Also, has anyone had any experience with survey work done following a natural event been paid for by insurance, or does the price typically fall on the individual affected?
This is a very good reason to document with spc.
If your work is all georeferenced to spc through cors, you will have a valuable database.
Never mind the natural disasters. I just remedied part of a well established subdivision with 7 record monuments. 2 destroyed by decorative wall, 1 destroyed by hydrant installation. 3 chipped by landscaping activities. 1 seems to be decent.
I spent the better part of Monday finding all the old field notes and incorporating those into a networked solution for the best original location of the disturbed or lost monuments.
I can only imagine the nightmare of establishing locations of land after a disaster. The loss of a survey office and all the original notes would exacerbate that nightmare.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Properly determining land lines after a tornado is almost an exercise in futility. Sometimes the actual property owner wants their boundary found or re-established, and sometimes the local municipality and NWS investigators just needs some lath to determine which pile of rubble went on which foundation (really).
In order to get personnel into an area the roads need to be cleared, quickly. This means all the debris winds up just back of curb...right where you need to look for property corners. And this pile of debris is probably the last pile to leave six months later.
The pic above is from the Moore, OK 1999 tornado. It is difficult to comprehend, but one couldn't even tell which street you were actually on; the street signs had been ripped up. But that was secondary to the fact you really couldn't even tell where the streets were at due to the debris field.
After about 24 hours a few routes in and out were established but the actual clearing took months. The city of Moore hired surveyors merely to determine the street names from plats just to get makeshift signs up so folks could tell where they were going.
Actually performing a "proper" boundary establishment in a 1950s residential area pieced together from six different plats created over a five year period by six different firms can make you pull your hair out even without destruction. Re-establishing land lines after surface destruction like a tornado can be an almost impossible task. It never gets back in the ground like it was. Never.
paden cash, post: 445291, member: 20 wrote: It never gets back in the ground like it was. Never.
[SARCASM]So why even try to look for the stone?[/SARCASM]
:smarty::p
I see a few axles, and a good transmission!
I know our former NGS advisor, Chris Pearson, went to Nepal to help them with control after the very severe earthquake they had a few years ago. I think there was some very large horizontal displacements. As a side note, we had a part time engineer who is from Nepal and she survived this earthquake, she got our of her house just before it collapsed.
spledeus, post: 445288, member: 3579 wrote: Never mind the natural disasters. I just remedied part of a well established subdivision with 7 record monuments. 2 destroyed by decorative wall, 1 destroyed by hydrant installation. 3 chipped by landscaping activities. 1 seems to be decent.
I spent the better part of Monday finding all the old field notes and incorporating those into a networked solution for the best original location of the disturbed or lost monuments.
I guess in my head, losing corners due to some type of natural occurrence seemed out of the ordinary. I forget that everyone deals with lost monuments everyday, lol. I tell my crew when we can't find anything and there's a glimmer of hope a point might be there, "If you got nothin', you gotta find somethin" and so the hole enlarges or the search continues.
I can see how the most detrimental natural disaster related to boundaries would definitely be earthquakes, but with advancements in the GNSS technology a lot of the large scale, high order monuments are perpetuated...
I lose enough nail and discs in the centerline on a day to day basis for the most random unknown reasons that I can only imagine that cleanup after a tornado would cause most road control to disappear, if the snow plows didn't take them out. In sunny south Florida I am not sure how our road control disappears, no construction, or roadwork, just a 10' long scrape with a hole at the end. R/W points disappear regularly with landscaping and the regular things. However this is on a day to day basis and typically with for a deal nobody really wants to pay for a survey for anyway. On the somewhat rare occurrence of natural disasters how is a local surveyor or company compensated for putting the puzzle back together?
[USER=20]@paden cash[/USER] , it seems you have experience with putting the pieces back together after a storm, what was the protocol and how were you hired for the job?
In 2007 a tornado destroyed about 95 percent of Greensburg, Kansas.
file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Will/My%20Documents/Downloads/141534.pdf
I'm hoping someone involved in the KSLS Control Survey effort that took place shortly thereafter will provide information on how they did what they did. All I know is that when I hit town a few weeks later there were shiny caps all over the place.
Brian McEachern, post: 445402, member: 9299 wrote: I guess in my head, losing corners due to some type of natural occurrence seemed out of the ordinary. I forget that everyone deals with lost monuments everyday, lol. I tell my crew when we can't find anything and there's a glimmer of hope a point might be there, "If you got nothin', you gotta find somethin" and so the hole enlarges or the search continues.
I can see how the most detrimental natural disaster related to boundaries would definitely be earthquakes, but with advancements in the GNSS technology a lot of the large scale, high order monuments are perpetuated...
I lose enough nail and discs in the centerline on a day to day basis for the most random unknown reasons that I can only imagine that cleanup after a tornado would cause most road control to disappear, if the snow plows didn't take them out. In sunny south Florida I am not sure how our road control disappears, no construction, or roadwork, just a 10' long scrape with a hole at the end. R/W points disappear regularly with landscaping and the regular things. However this is on a day to day basis and typically with for a deal nobody really wants to pay for a survey for anyway. On the somewhat rare occurrence of natural disasters how is a local surveyor or company compensated for putting the puzzle back together?
[USER=20]@paden cash[/USER] , it seems you have experience with putting the pieces back together after a storm, what was the protocol and how were you hired for the job?
We were hired (along with several other firms) by the City of Del City a few months after the May 3, 1999 tornado. Del City was at the NE end of the tornado track that wiped out much of Moore. Originally the city wanted the lot lines marked in the most devastated (residential) areas. We had to educate a few city officials that it wasn't as easy as taking a plat out in the field and staking them out. Some people owned multiple lots, or slivers of adjacent lots. It became quickly evident the city merely needed some sort of accounting system to monitor the ongoing cleanup, permits and inspections. 90 days after the tornado the place still looked like a war zone. The city settled to have us mark (lath) front property lines with addresses from the county assessor's info. This was still pre-GIS. Several crews (not us) stayed on and eventually did some 'real' surveying determining 'real' property lines in the worst affected areas. The amount of error collectively found in the older subdivisions was, from what I heard, a real pain in the butt.
We also did some work that fall for the city of Moore in an attempt to locate infrastructure appurtenances such as manholes and water valves. The cleanup crews make a real mess of everything with their dozer and clamshell buckets. It's really funny; as long as there was a house foundation one could almost make heads or tales of where you were at. After most of the foundations were removed it was way too easy to get lost. Manholes could be under a foot of muck and debris.
The May 3, 1999 tornado also wiped out a small town north of here, Mulhall, OK. A small hamlet with probably less that 400 residents and occupying (if I remember) the best part of 80 acres. The Oklahoma Society of Land Surveyors got together with volunteers and attempted to get property marked, similar to what HC just mentioned in Greensburg, KS. The town had no budget and nothing more than a mayor and a police officer and a public works dude that kept the water lines fixed and operated the sewage lagoon. We did what we could and a lot of the control we set is still there today. Once again you have to consider "pre-tornado" corners and "post-tornado" corners.
The Moore area with its larger population was sensationalized by the media. The huge response was welcomed, I'm sure, but the actually act of "rebuilding" was gnat-cluster. Mulhall sat quietly by and rebuilt as they could. Both places had their problems and their shining moments. Over the last fifteen years I have also worked with my power utility clients in several destroyed areas during the reconstruction of (the mainly aerial) transmission and distribution grid.
One thing that sticks with me the most was how quickly I decided to leave my camera at home. Watching folks that have worn the same clothes for a week dig through what is left of their life's mementos is a heart-wrenching thing to experience. I could not be a photo journalist. The aftermath of natural destruction is a somber place to be. Especially when you consider those you saw experiencing the pathos were actually the lucky ones that did not perish.
[USER=20]@paden cash[/USER] , thanks for the back story. There is definitely a need for surveyors before and after nature transpires. This post was brought about by like I said the looming threat of Irma and the recent Harvey events. There's only a handful of surveyors in my area and in the event Irma washes us away I'm looking for information on either how the wheel was re-invented or how to continue to pay the bills once everything settles down. First hand experience is the best teacher in my opinion, and to read others' experience can be equally as beneficial.
Brian McEachern, post: 445430, member: 9299 wrote: [USER=20]@paden cash[/USER] , thanks for the back story. There is definitely a need for surveyors before and after nature transpires. This post was brought about by like I said the looming threat of Irma and the recent Harvey events. There's only a handful of surveyors in my area and in the event Irma washes us away I'm looking for information on either how the wheel was re-invented or how to continue to pay the bills once everything settles down. First hand experience is the best teacher in my opinion, and to read others' experience can be equally as beneficial.
Hopefully your community won't have to experience anything but a little water and a little inconvenience. That's my prayer for everyone that is close to the storm.
I always wondered about this after a major earthquake. If the land shifts spc will not work anymore...
If do the fences/monuments still hold and the land has moved or widened? Or do the spatial relations remain the same and fences are now off the line? [emoji23]
Glad I don't work in California!
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
paden cash, post: 445417, member: 20 wrote: We were hired (along with several other firms) by the City of Del City a few months after the May 3, 1999 tornado. Del City was at the NE end of the tornado track that wiped out much of Moore. Originally the city wanted the lot lines marked in the most devastated (residential) areas. We had to educate a few city officials that it wasn't as easy as taking a plat out in the field and staking them out. Some people owned multiple lots, or slivers of adjacent lots. It became quickly evident the city merely needed some sort of accounting system to monitor the ongoing cleanup, permits and inspections. 90 days after the tornado the place still looked like a war zone. The city settled to have us mark (lath) front property lines with addresses from the county assessor's info. This was still pre-GIS. Several crews (not us) stayed on and eventually did some 'real' surveying determining 'real' property lines in the worst affected areas. The amount of error collectively found in the older subdivisions was, from what I heard, a real pain in the butt.
We also did some work that fall for the city of Moore in an attempt to locate infrastructure appurtenances such as manholes and water valves. The cleanup crews make a real mess of everything with their dozer and clamshell buckets. It's really funny; as long as there was a house foundation one could almost make heads or tales of where you were at. After most of the foundations were removed it was way too easy to get lost. Manholes could be under a foot of muck and debris.
The May 3, 1999 tornado also wiped out a small town north of here, Mulhall, OK. A small hamlet with probably less that 400 residents and occupying (if I remember) the best part of 80 acres. The Oklahoma Society of Land Surveyors got together with volunteers and attempted to get property marked, similar to what HC just mentioned in Greensburg, KS. The town had no budget and nothing more than a mayor and a police officer and a public works dude that kept the water lines fixed and operated the sewage lagoon. We did what we could and a lot of the control we set is still there today. Once again you have to consider "pre-tornado" corners and "post-tornado" corners.
The Moore area with its larger population was sensationalized by the media. The huge response was welcomed, I'm sure, but the actually act of "rebuilding" was gnat-cluster. Mulhall sat quietly by and rebuilt as they could. Both places had their problems and their shining moments. Over the last fifteen years I have also worked with my power utility clients in several destroyed areas during the reconstruction of (the mainly aerial) transmission and distribution grid.
One thing that sticks with me the most was how quickly I decided to leave my camera at home. Watching folks that have worn the same clothes for a week dig through what is left of their life's mementos is a heart-wrenching thing to experience. I could not be a photo journalist. The aftermath of natural destruction is a somber place to be. Especially when you consider those you saw experiencing the pathos were actually the lucky ones that did not perish.
Big fires are like that, usually I'm not there for boundary lines but we did resurvey a bunch of State Forest boundary after the Valley Fire. The monuments survived but carsonite posts melt until only some strings are left. Boundary signs blow away but the post is still there.
Following our earthquakes it would have been hugely helpful if our central or local government survey departments had shown some leadership and proactively and rapidly re-established a good proportion of the city's main control network.
Instead each surveyor was left trying to piece together individual parts.
Couple this with rules and instructions that simply did not work on the ground - and which were later rescinded - and confusion reigned for at least five years.
There were a few notable exceptions - but, on the whole, lack of leadership at all levels in all sectors made the mess worse and has slowed recovery significantly.
