Pincushion Corner

RPLS#, post: 431851, member: 12280 wrote: ....I hate setting rods where another survey has set a rod, but I know my client doesn't want to hear "your corner is S72 42 57W 2.18' from this rod that your neighbors surveyor set".

It's always hard to explain to someone else why two surveyors can't come up with the same solution. I would always set a corner monument over just saying that the corner is xx away from an existing monument (I'm not sure if that is what you were saying). It might be good to try to find that other surveyor anyway, at least to inform him that you agree with his marker, if you can't actually discuss the differences.

There's nothing inherently wrong with setting a pincushion as long as you have a good reason for doing so.

My data collector said to set it here is not a good reason.

Good reasons are based in the current physical object is not at the legal corner.

Finding another surveyor's mistake is not an indictment of the entire profession. People understand that there are bad practitioners in every field, contractors that do crappy work, doctors that give bad diagnosis, etc. With a little explanation, the client can walk away feeling that they are glad they paid the extra money to hire a professional like yourself and that the situation has been corrected. Just pound down the other monument down a little below grade so it's not easily mistaken for the corner.

So sad that people cant understand that they frequently get what they pay for, just with surveying, they don't know the quality is poor until time has passed by. It has been my experience that if the firm can give a price before they even talk to the client, They either charge too much, or they rush the job and that makes me uncomfortable.

Just finding the original corners takes a lot of the bs out of the situation, and doesn't screw up everyone else down the line. I mean if you can hook two irons and create a boundary out of it, you should have been able to have an idea where to start looking for the original irons in the first place.

RPLS#, post: 431851, member: 12280 wrote: I'm surveying a lot in a very old subdivision for a small developer. The neighbor to my clients property recently hired a surveyor from out of town, as far as I can tell they have a local office for techs and and field staff, but their RPLS is in an office about 250 miles away. I was able to obtain a copy of their survey, from the local office admins. It appears they shot a total of one rod in the block and referenced one other rod in a neihboring block for angle and then set 3 new rods. Well as it turns out, I don't agree with the rods they set on my clients line by about 2 feet. I called the RPLS to see if we could share notes and come to an understanding, but as it turns out, in the three months since he signed the survey, he no longer works with the company. I hate setting rods where another survey has set a rod, but I know my client doesn't want to hear "your corner is S72 42 57W 2.18' from this rod that your neighbors surveyor set". Its also embarrassing explaining why i dont agree with another surveyor. Oh and I know Kent will like this part: My estimate of cost for the client was more than double what the neighbor paid for her survey. How do I know what the other company charged? They have the price of surveys "lot and block surveys" listed in their company email signature.

What the other company charged is irrelevant. If you have confidence in your own work, simply show the located pins with offsets to the corners that you have established.

I deal with this scenario on an almost daily basis. The firm here has been 100% proportion for thirty + years. Tie the block corners, prorate everything in between & carry on. Same with section breakdown, 4 section corners & proportion.

RPLS#, post: 431851, member: 12280 wrote: I'm surveying a lot in a very old subdivision for a small developer. The neighbor to my clients property recently hired a surveyor from out of town, as far as I can tell they have a local office for techs and and field staff, but their RPLS is in an office about 250 miles away. I was able to obtain a copy of their survey, from the local office admins. It appears they shot a total of one rod in the block and referenced one other rod in a neihboring block for angle and then set 3 new rods. Well as it turns out, I don't agree with the rods they set on my clients line by about 2 feet. I called the RPLS to see if we could share notes and come to an understanding, but as it turns out, in the three months since he signed the survey, he no longer works with the company. I hate setting rods where another survey has set a rod, but I know my client doesn't want to hear "your corner is S72 42 57W 2.18' from this rod that your neighbors surveyor set". Its also embarrassing explaining why i dont agree with another surveyor. Oh and I know Kent will like this part: My estimate of cost for the client was more than double what the neighbor paid for her survey. How do I know what the other company charged? They have the price of surveys "lot and block surveys" listed in their company email signature.

In my opinion you should track him down and have a conversation. Start humble with the goal of restoring the neighborhood and improving practice.
If he wont talk and his work is garbage go to the Board. Anything less is kicking the can down the road.

[USER=10038]@Webbed feet[/USER]

Silly people. Should be locked up and the key thrown away.

RPLS#, post: 431851, member: 12280 wrote: I hate setting rods where another survey has set a rod, but I know my client doesn't want to hear "your corner is S72 42 57W 2.18' from this rod that your neighbors surveyor set".

Davy Crockett once said:
"First, make sure you're right...
Then go ahead!"

RPLS#, post: 431851, member: 12280 wrote: I'm surveying a lot in a very old subdivision for a small developer. The neighbor to my clients property recently hired a surveyor from out of town, as far as I can tell they have a local office for techs and and field staff, but their RPLS is in an office about 250 miles away. I was able to obtain a copy of their survey, from the local office admins. It appears they shot a total of one rod in the block and referenced one other rod in a neihboring block for angle and then set 3 new rods. Well as it turns out, I don't agree with the rods they set on my clients line by about 2 feet. I called the RPLS to see if we could share notes and come to an understanding, but as it turns out, in the three months since he signed the survey, he no longer works with the company. I hate setting rods where another survey has set a rod, but I know my client doesn't want to hear "your corner is S72 42 57W 2.18' from this rod that your neighbors surveyor set". Its also embarrassing explaining why i dont agree with another surveyor. Oh and I know Kent will like this part: My estimate of cost for the client was more than double what the neighbor paid for her survey. How do I know what the other company charged? They have the price of surveys "lot and block surveys" listed in their company email signature.

I agree with most of what you're saying here, except for the part, "a surveyor from out of town". I routinely work out of town, out of state, and I put the same effort into that work as I do working locally. In fact, later this week I'll be about 250 miles from here in SW CT doing some work. Don't let the company address fool you into thinking that I wasn't there on site.

The only concern, John, is that you are the exception to the rule. Techs travel and stampers stay at a desk. That's the only way they have time to stamp the production of fourteen crews working in six states. My personal opinion is that is a practice that we surveyors need to stomp out in every state.

Holy Cow, post: 432017, member: 50 wrote: The only concern, John, is that you are the exception to the rule. Techs travel and stampers stay at a desk. That's the only way they have time to stamp the production of fourteen crews working in six states. My personal opinion is that is a practice that we surveyors need to stomp out in every state.

The same model exists with 14 crews in one town. If you are a dirtbag you will be one both in and out of town..

"That's not very professional, to call a fellow professional a dirtbag".
Well,
"That's not very professional to be a dirtbag!"

🙂

All good advice.

We regularly condemn pincushion corners, but the typical pincushion starts because the surveyor to set the 2nd monument either didn't look adequately for the original, ignored good secondary evidence to the original location, or failed to recognize that the surveyor who set a monument already existing to mark a corner did so to a reasonably acceptable accuracy given the equipment, methods, and conditions existing when it was set, even though the measurements & math of a new survey shows some discrepancy to where the corner "should have been",

I've seen many instances where a monument was existing and purporting to mark a corner, but was a few tenths or even several feet from the location that deed or map dimensions said it should be, and a following surveyor inappropriately set another monument on little or nothing more than a math & measure analysis. Bad pincushion.

I've also seen other circumstances where a surveyor found a monument purporting to mark a corner and it may have been only a couple of tenths away from the corner position based upon a plethora of other physical and documentary evidence. In most suburban or rural situations, a couple of tenths is meaningless, but in more urban situations where land values are measured in thousands of dollars per sq ft, it can get a bit iffy. Generally, you would give the benefit of the doubt to the existing monument, but if you can show that the surveyor setting the monument did so on an incorrect or inappropriate basis, then there is nothing wrong with, and IMO you should identify the true corner location where the preponderance of all available evidence would place it.

To the landowners, without a good explanation as to why you are saying the previous surveyor is wrong, they would be right to wonder which of the two surveyors is actually right and why it's so difficult for surveyors to agree. Without that explanation, a pincushion is an indictment on the knowledge and abilities of the broader profession. After all, if both were licensed, then both were supposedly competent (at least according to the State).

With a complete and understandable explanation based on appropriate facts (make the complex understandable), it is an opportunity to show the landowners that some professionals are more knowledgeable and more diligent than others - that surveying is a learned profession rather than a straightforward commodity or service.

I really like that Crockett quote.

Holy Cow, post: 432017, member: 50 wrote: The only concern, John, is that you are the exception to the rule. Techs travel and stampers stay at a desk. That's the only way they have time to stamp the production of fourteen crews working in six states. My personal opinion is that is a practice that we surveyors need to stomp out in every state.

I work for the same company as John, since October. I am licensed in 6 states, I work in 3 to 5 of them regularly depending on work load. I work hard at not cutting corners. From what I know of John, we have never met, we have very similar ethics. Right (Correct) is first. Everything else is secondary.

Shouldn't the two owners have an opportunity to settle the conflict before the survey is completed rather than than two surveyor's making monuments to their differences of opinion? Maybe two feet doesn't matter to them. Maybe it does. Why are you surveying? To prove you are correct or to locate a boundary that will stand the test of time?

linebender, post: 432352, member: 449 wrote: Shouldn't the two owners have an opportunity to settle the conflict before the survey is completed rather than than two surveyor's making monuments to their differences of opinion? Maybe two feet doesn't matter to them. Maybe it does. Why are you surveying? To prove you are correct or to locate a boundary that will stand the test of time?

I would certainly encourage the landowners to come to a mutually acceptable agreement before filing my map. I'd rather show an agreed line that all are satisfied with then show conflicting info that is the basis for a legal conflict.

But in order to show that there is some circumstance that would require a solution such as an agreement, one must first show why there would be some question as to the correctness of the existing monuments. At that point, you need a solid explanation as to why you think the existing monuments are wrong or questionable.

Why not set a monument 90' from the original 1/16th corner that had been there for 86 years? Why not upset the entire section? This messed up boundaries throughout the section including the State highway right-of-way which is tied to the original corners. But the surveyor who did this was theoretically, if not legally, correct.