Posting this might not be the best idea, but it will make me feel a helluva lot better...so here goes....
I recently got a call concerning a survey I completed some five years ago in a little town about 45 minutes west of OKC. I had to look up for whom I had done the work. It was in an older part of town, platted before statehood, and took up the best part of half a block.
There was nothing really remarkable about the survey except for the fact I didn't set any corners. I couldn't. There were iron fence posts at every corner, all different sizes and well planted in concrete. I actually sent the crew back to located each post in at least two places with a reflectorless TS. It's a difficult thing to sign a survey that indicates you found a 'fence post' at the corner, but that's exactly the way it was.
I actually took the crew out there myself in an attempt to possibly set some concrete nails and washers in the base of the concrete post anchor. I couldn't. Each one of the corners fell somewhere within the actual pipe posts. Two were good size..6 inch. One of the other two was what I called a 4" and the other I called a 2". At each corner my survey stated the proper sized "found iron post".
The survey itself indicated a good amount of ties to the section line and four or five other found corners in the platted area and everything fit really well. I remember discussing the survey with my partner and we chuckled about "what are the chances?" that this could ever happen. I completed the survey for the client. In my memory he was going to put up a large metal shop building. I have no idea if he ever did or not.
Fast forward to about a month ago. The phone rings and it's another surveyor wanting to discuss this survey. I dug up the folder while we chatted and soon I was looking at the survey on my screen. I asked him what he needed to know.
His reply was, "This is some kind of joke, right?."
I overlooked his sharp tongue because the ink probably wasn't dry yet on his license. But it quickly became apparent he actually didn't need any information, he just wanted to ostracize me for not setting any corners.
I explained the pains with which I had prepared the survey. There just wasn't any way to set anything. In my opinion, albeit by default, I had considered the posts as the actual monuments. His argument centered around the fact that they couldn't be monuments because they probably weren't set by a surveyor. :pinch:
My understanding and politeness made little difference as we continued the conversation. The final straw started to fall when he stated he'd be glad "when all the old surveyors finally retired". He even hinted that the State Board probably needed to be made aware of the situation. I told him to let me know when that happened and I'd be more than happy to meet him down there with my job files.
I didn't even say goodbye.
It has taken me a month of stewing about this to even mention it. It really got under my skin. Maybe the prick reads this message board. Maybe he now knows who Paden Cash really is. Maybe he has grown a pair in the last month and might stop by the office to talk some more. The address is the same as on the copy of the survey.
Stop by sometime little lady, I'll buy lunch. |-)
Sorry to hear about that. I suppose he doesn't understand that monuments can come in a variety of shapes and flavors. I reckon he'd want to cut down an oak tree to set a two-bit rebar with plastic cap if it fell on the corner. I have seen fence posts referenced and I have referenced fence posts. I have set dimples on top of capped posts and left pk nails in cedar posts. Seems like the problem is his.
> His argument centered around the fact that they couldn't be monuments because they probably weren't set by a surveyor. :pinch:
After hearing that, I'd have told him he needs a few remedial courses in real estate law.
If you held your tongue, you're a better man than I am.
That got under my skin and I didn't even take the call. Embarrassing for us young guys (I guess I am still young).
I suppose he could have wanted to have you stamp your number on the post...
BTW, I have called out fence posts before.
I've called out fence posts lots of times. If that's the corner, then that's the corner. The worst thing you could do is set another monument (pincushion) and cause confusion.
> But it quickly became apparent he actually didn't need any information, he just wanted to ostracize me for not setting any corners.
Okay, so you were dealing with a survey where the stakes of some much older survey had most likely been carefully replaced by whoever set the various fence posts.
In my experience, the average survey party does not do a particularly good job of locating fence posts - even highly regular ones like plumb steel pipe posts - so the call for the posts was understood in that context. Those folks do need remedial guidance in the form of supplemental markers.
In your case, I would have probably set survey markers as references. Two would have been sufficient if the bearings referred to some reproducible direction like grid North of the SPCS. If there had been a curb, I would have probably set them in the top of curb on the prolongation of the sidelines of the lot - some place easy to find and tie and reasonably permanent.
As for the fence posts, unless they were for all practical purposes exactly centered on the corner, it wouldn't have been unreasonable to have recited the direction and distance from the center of the base of the post to the corner so that it would have been seen to fall within the post. If you decided the center of the post was in fact the best evidence of the position of the corner, it would probably have been better practice to describe in some definite manner such as "exact center of base of 4 in. Steel Pipe Fence Post at ground level".
Paden,
Some of the younger guys just don't seem to "get it". I have been doing this for 20 years, and I am still learning something new every day.
The guy that made the call needs a reality check. Very unprofessional, in my opinion. Sometimes a found monument is just that, a corner. This is a perfect situation where experience would play a large role in evaulating the evidence.
You handled the situation better than I would have.
Jimmy
Return the favor-
Next Friday morning..... call him up at 0805 and ask if he's been around the toilet seat far enough to find the handle....... set him up for a great weekend of rumination.....
That is awful. Young buck probably went to college and probably learned that every opinion, even the ones you do not agree with, has a value.
Did the current generation of aging surveyors ever feel this way about the older generation? Or is this attitude based on the gap created by technology?
> It has taken me a month of stewing about this to even mention it. It really got under my skin.
I'm going to add one more observation. This whole post isn't about a technical issue, is it? It's about a feeling issue. The question I have is why it bothers you. If some clueless young practictioner wants to call you up to basically insult you, I have every confidence that you know how to respond. This wasn't really that, I don't think.
> I'm going to add one more observation. This whole post isn't about a technical issue, is it? It's about a feeling issue...
You're right, Kent. It's taken me a while but I think I understand why it bothers me so. And I really don't think it has anything to do with a loudmouth....but I'm glad he was there so I'd have a focal point for my ire.
It bothered me that I left a surveyed boundary with no possible way to 'occupy' any of the corners. Resurveying any of the property couldn't actually be done with any sort of accuracy. The corners did not fall in the center of the posts. The two larger posts were filled with 50 year old concrete. I actually attempted to set a large mag-nail in the top of one by drilling a pilot hole and the results were disastrous. The other 4" post was hollow and the smaller post had been cut, bent and welded to a point.
That's why I showed so many ties to other found pins and the section line. So the 'next guy' could actually hop on board my 'numbers' from the other corners shown on the survey. I believe the other surveyor is a solo operator and was attempting to lay out new construction on the site. I'm sure he was frustrated by the fact that there were no actual "points" on any of the four corners.
So basically, my fears of the next guy not being able to follow my survey came to fruition. And the disappointment with my own work was amplified by the other surveyor's inability (or unwillingness) to understand how the survey was put together.
The other thing that bothered me was a younger member of the profession had put me in the 'old guy' category. It took me a few days to realize how deep a cut it actually was. As my eyes and ears steadily age I can't help but wonder if my mind is getting foggy also. I'm probably not the first old fart to realize that I can't do what I use to. It seemed the other surveyor felt my age had something to do with the way I performed the survey. Although I don't see that as a factor at all, I was disappointed someone verbalized it.
There's no doubt in my mind he was a little out of line with his generalizations. But most of the anger and disappointment I've felt was from within, it really didn't have anything to do with him. But it does sting a little bit to think that after a lifetime of surveying, I'm going to leave the next watch up to surveyors of his caliber.
It was still a good survey.
> So basically, my fears of the next guy not being able to follow my survey came to fruition. And the disappointment with my own work was amplified by the other surveyor's inability (or unwillingness) to understand how the survey was put together.
[...]
> It was still a good survey.
It's a tough assignment to "idiot-proof" a survey, i.e. to leave it with neon signs in place so that whichever surveyor follows the work won't ruin a hat from head sweat.
In my opinion, idiot-proofing has to take into account the tools that those who follow will have to use, and that isn't always easy to predict. For some reason, idiots seem to be more creative than anyone would ever expect.
I had a similar one, so I set some witness corners 2 feet away; and you can guess what happened, no matter what the drawing said or how the caps are marked, the new fence gets built to the caps:-(
Sometimes we have to understand that we are surveying for landowners not regulators or other surveyors. You did the right thing.
I agree.
And a more proper ring, ring for those still on the wrong side of the tripod.
"Dear venerable old dude surveyor, I didn't study your map that was provided as close as I should have before giving a price for this job. Would you be so kind as to provide me with your control? I would pay you for your time and be forever grateful. It would save me the time of having to tie into your ties and recreate the whole thing, possibly ending up with small differences due to measurement error that would only make both of us look bad in the eyes of the client. Sorry to bother you, my mistake, I'm still learning."
Had This Guy Actually Been To The Site Yet?
A good survey tells a story about what was done and why. Often I have seen a non normal note, that once I am in the field makes perfect sense. I trace the footsteps, see what he saw and know why he did what he did.
Without me being critical is it possible you missed an opportunity to tell your story on paper to the fullest? Just perhaps you did not leave enough breadcrumbs for the newbie. For instance: "Fence Post Found Obscuring Corner Location".
Being critical your greatest error is the not subtle names used in your post.
Paul in PA
From what you describe, I believe your plat should have been more than adequate for not only its intended purpose when you made the survey, but also for whatever purpose that the caller needed. Consequently, I do not believe there is any reason for you to be concerned about it, but I do share your concerns about the future.
In all likelihood,Duane Frymire has nailed the situation on the head. As I see it, the survey could have only been fool proofed at extraordinary expense. As said by Gabby Hayes in at least one movie “this is an outrage, a daddddd-burn outrage”, but what can one expect from a “young whippersnapper”?
>But it does sting a little bit to think that after a lifetime of surveying, I'm going to leave the next watch up to surveyors of his caliber.
As a bystander, this is what I take away from your tale.
There is also the point of view that after 50 years of these things representing the line to the owners, measurements don't matter.
Had This Guy Actually Been To The Site Yet?
> "Fence Post Found Obscuring Corner Location".
Really? I mean really? Do we really need to go back to surveying 101 and find the simple definitions of "corner" and "monument"????
How about "Fence post found occupying the corner position"? Doesn't that more accurately describe the situation? Well, of course, unless you are one of the uninformed "newbies" that mistakenly believes that ONLY a true "surveyors monument" can be a monument, and that a corner (or monument) is not a corner (or monument) unless it can be physically identified and be measureable (repeatably) to the nearest mc-millimeter.
Mighty Moe is correct. Far too many times we forget who we are really supposed to be protecting and doing RETRACEMENT surveys for.
The corner is what and where the corner is. The ignorance and arrogance of a "surveyor" that can't or wont understand the simple fact that it is legal principles that control corner identification and location - not measuring tapes and calculators, cannot change the simple truth of a found "corner".
Had This Guy Actually Been To The Site Yet?
Well said Brian! :good: :good:
