Finishing up an ALTA / ACSM survey and got this back from the attorney:
"For our title insurance coverage, we need a surveyor’s inspection report to insure against errors on the survey. Can you please prepare one ASAP and send to us?"
I have responded that the preparation of one was not in our original agreement and that there would be an additional fee for this.
I also noted that the reason they want one was to "insure against possible errors on the survey". (((SLAP!!))) I think my fee just went up!
What could I possibly put in an inspection report that was not already covered by the ALTA survey? o.O Attorneys.........
I don't get it. That is what your state license, E&O insurance, ALTA Cert., and good reputation is for. I'd contact your E&O provider and get their take. I've heard that issuing "absolute guarantees" can void your E&O insurance, since you are only required to meet a duty of care custom to your region and, of course, state requirements.
I hate those extra certs. And it's noteworthy that they usually request them near the end, right before submission. When you question it or refuse, then it looks like you're the one holding things up.
ALTA, ACSM, & NSPS read and approved the current requirements/standards. That's all that needs to be adhered to, (unless your contract states otherwise).
Only YOU can sign your name... don't let them pressure you into anything.
BTW, what the hell is a "surveyor’s inspection report." I have 6 state licenses and have never seen or done one.
written agreement in place?
I assume you have a written agreement in place.There is a reason why the title folks and the surveying folks got together and formulated minimum standards. The idea is that if the survey is performed to the minimum standards, then title companies can and will issue ALTA level of coverage in their insurance policies. This coverage is ought to allow the lenders to lend. If the lenders won't lend on a survey that meets the minimum standards, that is the problem for the lender. If you step outside the minimum standards and the deal goes south, then it could be that YOU have a problem. Very few surveyors bill and collect fees based upon the value of the deal. It really is absurd when you consider most surveyors are collecting only a few thousand dollars for these services when the value of some of these deals are in the millions and millions of dollars. I would not do it for all the tea in China.
I think they are talking about the old form that some companies such as "Lawyer's Title Surveyors Report" that they used to have surveyors fill out and sign. We haven’t been asked to sign one of those in years. Especially for an ALTA survey. What more certification could you possibly want?
There is a "HUD Survey Instructions and Report" that is frerquently used in conjunction with ALTA surveys.
I have found that often, when an attorney sends me six or eight items he wants added to his ALTA cert, they seem to have been cribbed from this.
Here's the Home Page for the Surveyor's Inspection Report: http://www.mvt.com/Site/Mississippi
The link on the bottom right will link you to the actual report: http://www.mvt.com/Content/public/MS/pdfs/Surveyors%20Inspection%20Report.fill%20in.pdf
> Here's the Home Page for the Surveyor's Inspection Report: http://www.mvt.com/Site/Mississippi
>
> The link on the bottom right will link you to the actual report: http://www.mvt.com/Content/public/MS/pdfs/Surveyors%20Inspection%20Report.fill%20in.pdfbr >
What a rat's nest of liability.
For the record, we don't use the words "any" or "all" in a certification.
Note that these words do not appear in the ALTA cert.
I read that cert in the link above, and I wouldn't sign it without changing several things.
I wouldn't sign that thing!
I took a quick look at it and one thing that jumped out was that you are to figure who is in "possession" of the property!
The ALTA cert is plenty.
I am with Pin. Same thing. 6 licenses and never seen what you detailed.
Neither would I sign it. I would tell the L@#$%^ to fill it out and sign it themselves.:-@
Banks have requested this form, or a form substantially like this, for residential closing for a very long time in my experience.
http://nc.invtitle.com/resource/forms/upload/practice/surveyors-report-form.pdf
That is similiar to the one Lawyers Title uses. I haven't seen or been asked to sign one in many years. If they did I think I would tell them they need an ALTA survey. I certainly would use one with an ALTA survey.
It never fails that there are some people that insist upon adding paperwork to an already overworked system.
Every state has their BOR and Survey Association that have spend endless hours developing the requirements every surveyor must adhere to.
Our signature on our work is all any of us should ever be held responsible for.
0.02
Buwaahahahahahahahahahaaha
> Here's the Home Page for the Surveyor's Inspection Report: http://www.mvt.com/Site/Mississippi
>
> The link on the bottom right will link you to the actual report: http://www.mvt.com/Content/public/MS/pdfs/Surveyors%20Inspection%20Report.fill%20in.pdfbr >
No, Hell NO, NO F#@$%ing way!
> Banks have requested this form, or a form substantially like this, for residential closing for a very long time in my experience.
>> http://nc.invtitle.com/resource/forms/upload/practice/surveyors-report-form.pdfbr >
Gordon is exactly right. The Title Companies have had similar forms as long as I have been in business if not longer.
In my first few months in business for myself I filled out these (and similar) reports. Then one day I wised up. My typing skills aren't great and those forms were a pain in the backside with a manual typewriter. So I made a similar form that I am able to fill out on my computer.
Notice my use of the word similar. Their form puts you in harms way for lots and lots of items. My form is designed to remove much of the burden from me. I stick to stating facts that I can prove.
When I began discussing my form with area surveyors they declared that the Title Companies "will never in a million years accept that". Funny thing is that I've been using my form more than 20 years now. So far I have had a grand total of ZERO calls about the form. (That total of zero calls does not include the calls from other surveyors asking if they could get a copy. There have been plenty of those.)
As to the question of filling out one of these when you are doing an ALTA survey, just say no. If the project were particularly complex I might be willing to compose a similar form to explain everything. But there is no reason to supply additional certifications. In fact, the ALTA standards forbid that.
Larry P
I'll bet that they didn't contract for the Table A items that cover some of those things on the certification report either.
Perhaps they were beginning to get push back on altering the ALTA certification by surveyors who are getting better educated about not changing it, so their doing this as and attempted end run.
Just like any other last minute certification request, negotiate.
"Items 1, 2, and 3 are OK, but are already included within the ALTA standards, so are redundant. We will only charge additional time required to prepare the separate certification for these items, presuming there are no additional parties to certify to."
"Since you did not contract for the Table A items corresponding to Items 7, 8, and 16 of your certification, we will be required to perform additional field surveying, calculations, and drafting in order to update the survey drawing to meet the requirements implied by these items. We can begin this work as soon as we recieve the updated PTR. Our fee for this additional work and certification items will be $XXXX. Delivery of the updated survey will be 10 working days after receiving the updated PTR."
"Per advice from my E&O carrier, the remaining items would not be covered as currently written under any policy my carrier provides, and so cannot be certified to. In most cases, there are provisions in the main portion of the ACSM/ALTA standards, or a corresponding optional Table A item that should suffice for your needs. Please review the enclosed 2011 ALTA/ACSM standards. After you've determined which Table A items will be required for your needs, I can provide you with an time and fee estimate for the updated survey."
They will decide by this afternoon that your survey and certification in its current form will be sufficient.
Different parts of the country I guess. We have never seen anything like it. I've had a few strange requests from out of state companies, but I was always able to shut them down.
By the way how do you answer Item 12?
That one really offends me.
In 32 years I have never seen a form like that, I would not sign it.
It gives me the impression that the Title Agency/Company does not know how to read and interpret a survey.