Degree Minute and decimal of a minute DD MM.mmm
00.00.000 this one...always
as i said, im not a surveyor..heck man i dont even know what a datum is..tell me what ways were available in say 1870, what did they call them, different names ...i will see if i can locate a reference to any of them as we have copious amounts of info, alot of which we havent figured out yet....the numbers are always 2-2-3...00.00.000 in our research concerning the project this is how they passed along the locations...00.00.000..all my location work has been by using this..and so far its been proven as correct...my thing is, we have located every spot by my work yet we have had to go in and dig all around to locate it precisely...i can walk you to within 20-30 ft of the location i am now working, but this one has to be located precisely without all the digging..one poster here said something about oak island..not quite but warmer than most...almost tanning hot...and to anothers post, yes, very dangerous...
Well here's your answer (I think). A knowledgeable surveyor or geodesist can accurately stake coordinates. If you picture it as simple plane coordinates, if 0,0 is *here" then 1'X1' is "there". So if the surveyor from 140 years ago tells you where his ordinate point is, then the surveyor can get you close. There is other data that one could use to get even closer. If you have that data, then you can get even more and more precise.
A modern knowledgeable surveyor can even possibly guess what datum the 140-year-old work was based on. He can say if it was based on "a" your points are here, if it's "b" your points are there. A lot of guys here can probably tell you different datums in play at that time.
If you even have their field notes, you can find out how they worked their way to your exact location. (Or did they set up at a location and use stellar observations to try to come up with latitudes and longitudes. seeing those field notes would also be helpful).
The short answer is that it can be done, but having as much original data is one of the biggest controlling factors to help you get precision.
what type info you interested in ?....i am looking for a location...it is the location within the boundary set by the measured ground between the crossing of the north/south and east/west lines of an exact set of coordinates...and i cant be off..if its 100 ft by 100 ft, or 10 ft by 10 ft..if im looking for 65.65.655N and 65.65.655W it can not change up or down a single digit...
Thank you looking4 for that polite reply. Like many other "professionals" on this board, I've been at it for almost 40 yrs. 20 plus in self business, licensed in 3 states and looking at a 4th (yikes, I'll be 60 soon so please just shoot me in the head....lol)
I think other replies regarding "finding an iron", and "knowing it's right" is exactly why we really are professionals. We take on the liability by proving yes or no. Yeppers, we get a good fee and deservedly so. We also have about $50K worth of survey gear in our $40K truck, and I'm solo with no employees. Not to mention insurance. cha ching, money don't grow on any tree I've ever seen
I get people asking why it was $600 for their lot survey when it only took me 2 hrs. I kind of smile and just say, "I'm liable, and I have lots of gear that cost me lots of money, and I passed the test. This is my problem now, not yours". Makes them happy, kinda sorta in a convoluted confusing way - as I drive off.
jered...take a set of coordinates...it produces an area..okay say 22.22.222N and 22.22.222W....so say according to our work it shows this as the exact point..it also shows any variation to these numbers, up or down, by the single digit on the end {to the right in parenthesis} 00.22.22.22{2} as being out of the excavation area and of imminent danger...i have dealt with this occurance on one of our sites already...once you breach it there is no stopping what was constructed there...once it starts there is no stopping it....the excavation can not go out of the measured ground of this exact measurement..
a standard gps device, whether costing 150 or 899 or anywhere in between is but a childs toy and can not produce repeatable readings on any exact spot...been there
bill...the documents we are working from date to the 1870s, proven and without a doubt..and they passed along the numbers exactly as 00.00.000....i used the 65 as an example...2 numbers, 2 numbers, 3 numbers...00.00.000....don't know what else to tell you....we got the numbers...our previous excavations have shown the numbers to be correct....if surveyors didnt use this format until then, then its when they started...
we have no field notes in a sense....we have all these other points...the coordinates were supplied in an order...we excavated each and at each learned from our excavation where in the documents to locate the next set of coordinates, and so on..each pointed to another, within the documents except this last one, which more or less says ''the last one'..so, maybe these other excavation points are what they worked from ?
> The short answer is that it can be done, but having as much original data is one of the biggest controlling factors to help you get precision.
Yes Mark, and don't forget the rules of the road in terms of controlling anything pertaining to boundary law: natural feature calls, distance,witness points, bearings and very low on the totem pole is coordinates. I know I missed a couple, but coordinates are last because they are based on the other stuff.
$0.02
non surveyor looking for info please>looking4
Can you tell us for which state or country you are requesting this data? If it's in my area I would be willing to give it a shot. Other's sound like they might too, depending on location.
How we do it is by magic, so we can't disclose here on the WWW 🙂
Magician's oath and all that, you know.....
Dtp
To answer your question about "professionals", there is quite a wide range of experience and education that can exist between licensed surveyors. In most of the U.S., 20 years experience in a supervisory role will qualify one for examination. Or a 2 year degree with 12 years experience. Or a 4 year degree with 7 years experience. The bigger question is whether the professional you are planning to hire has sufficient education/experience with the problem you are trying to solve. For example, I passed the licensing exam in 1998. On that exam were a number of questions pertaining to the Public Lands Survey System. I probably got most of those questions correct, because I studied for them, but I practice in Massachusetts, which was never part of the PLSS. I would have to study many more hours, and work many months with an experienced surveyor from a western state before I could claim any real competence to run a survey within the PLSS. The questions and answers posted here about your project should guide you in your hiring of an expert to help you with your problem. Clearly, you need somebody with expertise in geodetic coordinate systems (both historic and current), transformations between coordinate sytems, as well as the use of GPS technology. Depending on what it is that you are digging for, a person with some knowledge of your local history and the subject of interest could also prove invaluable.
> we have no field notes in a sense....we have all these other points...the coordinates were supplied in an order...we excavated each and at each learned from our excavation where in the documents to locate the next set of coordinates, and so on..each pointed to another, within the documents except this last one, which more or less says ''the last one'..so, maybe these other excavation points are what they worked from ?
You're on to something there. You can use one of those other excavation points as your "ordinate" value. Or "assuming this point to be 25°25'25"N X 121°21'21"W" we can set out your new coordinates. You can run an antenna on the "known" point and search for the new point. You'll get more precise points that way, than just running to a lat/long.
Second you (or your surveyor) should find out what geoid model was primarily used back then. The geoid model will improve precision. Next, going from latitude 25°25'25.0"N,to 25°25'25.1"N might be 10 feet. Precision to the decimal second will be +/- multiple feet.
Measuring the vector from your "known" coordinate to a point close to your unknown point by setting antennas up over both at the same time is how you will receive a "relative" precision of one point to the other. you can figure out how far to go from your temporary close point to the more precise location. A good surveyor can achieve this for you. You need to give him all of the information you can find out about the original coordinates. If you have found numerous points that appear to be in the right coordinate basis, he can survey in all of the "known" coordinates and zero-in on a more precise location for your unknowns.
Maybe that helps a bit.
Just reviewed the posts since my first and your responses. You mention that you have recovered several stones. Several questions regarding these:
- ... Are these stones on the same coordinate system?
- ... Is the coordinate system from old documents or modern mapping?
- ... Are the stones directly referenced to each other in the old documents?
- ... If there is a direct reference is it by coordinates or bearing and distance?
- ... Are any of the stones referenced to monuments outside the area by coordinates or bearing and distance?
- ... Do you know if the bearings you mention were magnetic (from a compass) or established by solar observation?
If you have answers to any of these questions it will be helpful here as well as to any surveyor trying to solve your problem. You say you do not understand what datum means. You have received several attempts to explain, this is mine.
The earth is slightly out of round in several directions. Early navigation (latitude and longitude) calculations treated it as a perfect sphere. Over the centuries astronomers refined their model and more recently geodetic science has improved on this. Each refinement creates a different datum. The more current math model is a shape slightly like an American football. Bigger around the equator than through the poles and the equator is slightly out of round. The datum used changes where the latitude and longitude intersect on or above the earth surface.
You should be aware that the magnetic north pole moves. You mentioned National Geographic, they published an article regarding this movement several years ago.
If the documents you have show bearings and distances between the stones survey grade GPS locations of the found stones can verify the accuracy of the known lines and assist with the verification of the desired coordinate location. As others have said survey grade GPS is very accurate under the right conditions. In wooded or brushy area conventional equipment is more reliable. It is common to use both GPS and conventional equipment on one project when conditions favor one or the other.
Someone may have used that format as a personal shorthand. If you've found it to work for some points of interest, then you must have it figured out.
Land surveyors used degrees (symbol) minutes' and seconds". Astronomy books that I've seen used the same. Celestial navigators on shipboard never got seconds of accuracy and might have used degrees (symbol) and minutes' with one decimal maximum to guard against computational roundoff.
> i am a non surveyor..i am looking for a very precise location...
Have you checked the invisible map on the back of the Declaration of Independence?:-D
> a standard gps device, whether costing 150 or 899 or anywhere in between is but a childs toy and can not produce repeatable readings on any exact spot...been there
Anything in that cost range is for hiking, hunting or rough mapping. Store a way point in the parking lot and it is enough to get you back to your vehicle after your hike.
As others have mentioned survey grade GPS is orders of magnitude more expensive. Additionally for the best accuracy two units are used. The first is a "base" at a known point that computes and transmits corrections. The second is the "rover" that received the GPS signal and the base correction. The rover then combines the two producing a corrected location. This, in trained hands, improves the accuracy and repeatability of the GPS.
If you have the surveyors notes from 1870, they will tell your professional surveyor if how he derived his coordinate base (datum).
Not all surveyors today will be able to follow in the footsteps of the surveyor from 1870. I recommend that you consult with several to determine which one best fits your needs based upon his qualifications. Ask them if they are proficient with solar/astronomical observations. Can they translate the coordinate geometry of today into coordinate geometry of yesteryear?
In my humble opinion, the techniques needed for your project will best be provided by the surveyors with over 25 years of experience. Astronomical observations were more common before our current technology driven era.
Good luck on your quest. I hope you find what you are looking for.
Sounds like a lease... mineral perhaps?
How would you know that it is off, by any measure?
This sounds like an episode of The Curse of Oak Island 🙂
Very interesting to follow tho.
