In the recent year, I'd say on over 70% of the jobs either myself or my crew have gone out on, we are missing some form of control. Most of it is control we've set. What's really disturbing is the amount of said missing control that are mag nails. We use anywhere from the 1/2" to 2-1/2" variety depending on where we are setting these nails (in pavement, sidewalks etc., NOT in grass or dirt). Just today I went back to a job we set control on in 2009, and re-recovered said control in 2012, only to find 3 of the 4 points we'd set were now missing (all mag nails, or mag nails & disk). My other crew, was working on a job that had control dating back to 2004 all the way up until a year ago and they ended up finding 1 of 8 points, again, all were mag nails or mag nails & disks. Yesterday, I went to look at a job in a subdivision, where in 2005 we set all the center line control with 2" mag nails and disks. There were 12 points in this block along the center line. Crew went out last week, said they found 3. I went out today and reset all of said control (we have a lot of work coming up in that block and I wanted my guys to have control to work with). Oddest thing I've seen and this is almost on a day-to-day occurrence. Is this common? Are any of you dealing with this? My PC told me today, he's seen sidewalk cleaning crews with flat point shovels cleaning weeds off the sidewalks actually rip up nails in the sidewalk thinking they were trash or debris. I'd never heard this, but I'm getting pretty dang frustrated!
Something I've seen in the last ten years is what I thought was a missing mag nail...that turned out to be a mag nail that the head had popped off. After setting up to reset one, I get down on my knees (a pain at my age) and then find the shaft, still in place. PKs didn't use to do that, but MAG nails seem to break. I've even had them shear as I'm setting them.
I've gotten so I tend to set the 4" mag nails in the lawn a little away from the sidewalks and blacktop. Those travel features just seem to get too much attention over the years and things get changed. I usually set my nails down about 4" or so, which is not always real convenient come frozen winter conditions.
Licensed Land Surveyor
Finger Lakes Region, Upstate New York
As a rule I don't consider mag nails in asphalt to be permanent control. They sometimes last a long time but you just can't count on it. It doesn't take a whole lot to pop them free.
If you were in a northern climate I'd be guessing that a snow plow got your nails. Could it be that a street sweeper got them?
Too much laying down a few new inches of asphalt or milling and remixing around here to expect control to last in pavement.
TxDot really does not appreciate messing with their concrete boulevards across the state.
Telephone and rural water gets laid down inside the driving lanes of rural roads no matter what they are topped with.
Headwalls get rebuilt fairly often around here to meet safety requirements and to extend the width of the driving lanes.
Curbs get knocked out of place by being runover by log trucks and mudders that like to cut across thru the islands.
Setting 60d nails or rebar beyond the driving surface and beyond the margins of rural roads half foot under sod roots will usually be there when I return.
I have drilled holes in rock, concrete blocks and bricks to bury underground to make things more stable.
Finding that sweet spot on a set of plans that the existing features will remain in place are also desirable locations.
Flag it too well and/or place noticeable guard stakes to bring attention to any point and it will disappear.
paden cash, post: 381039, member: 20 wrote: Something I've seen in the last ten years is what I thought was a missing mag nail...that turned out to be a mag nail that the head had popped off. After setting up to reset one, I get down on my knees (a pain at my age) and then find the shaft, still in place. PKs didn't use to do that, but MAG nails seem to break. I've even had them shear as I'm setting them.
That is the horrible thing about Mags. They are more brittle then the PKs for sure, and I have popped the top off many of the 1.5" variety. We use those for main CP in pavement, smaller 5/8" for crossings - which don't seem to have that issue. Gone to 8" dock spikes for anything not in pavement, and the trusty 20d for temps on line crossings and such.
In our Northern area, if the head pops, it only takes 2-3 seasons and what you will find is a small rusty hole, and when you dig you will find those small side ribs are very sharp shards of metal left in the sides of the hole. You can guess how I know. That hole will still get you a bit of a sniff with the detector though, no chance with the old PKs.
hlbennettpls, post: 381038, member: 10049 wrote: In the recent year, I'd say on over 70% of the jobs either myself or my crew have gone out on, we are missing some form of control. Most of it is control we've set. What's really disturbing is the amount of said missing control that are mag nails. We use anywhere from the 1/2" to 2-1/2" variety depending on where we are setting these nails (in pavement, sidewalks etc., NOT in grass or dirt). Just today I went back to a job we set control on in 2009, and re-recovered said control in 2012, only to find 3 of the 4 points we'd set were now missing (all mag nails, or mag nails & disk). My other crew, was working on a job that had control dating back to 2004 all the way up until a year ago and they ended up finding 1 of 8 points, again, all were mag nails or mag nails & disks. Yesterday, I went to look at a job in a subdivision, where in 2005 we set all the center line control with 2" mag nails and disks. There were 12 points in this block along the center line. Crew went out last week, said they found 3. I went out today and reset all of said control (we have a lot of work coming up in that block and I wanted my guys to have control to work with). Oddest thing I've seen and this is almost on a day-to-day occurrence. Is this common? Are any of you dealing with this? My PC told me today, he's seen sidewalk cleaning crews with flat point shovels cleaning weeds off the sidewalks actually rip up nails in the sidewalk thinking they were trash or debris. I'd never heard this, but I'm getting pretty dang frustrated!
I have stopped putting disks/flashers on control I want to have remain.
Also, flagging on the nail only helps the street sweeper take the nail out.
If I want to have it and find it, I use a mag nail in a drilled hole in concrete (the hole remains),
If necessarily in asphalt, I countersink it a bit, with the nail only, and describe it well (or it will be difficult to find). If I must put a flasher on a nail in asphalt, I countersink it as well, and make sure there are no edges to catch. And, yes mag nails are a little brittle at times.
toivo1037, post: 381091, member: 973 wrote: That is the horrible thing about Mags. They are more brittle then the PKs for sure, and I have popped the top off many of the 1.5" variety. We use those for main CP in pavement, smaller 5/8" for crossings - which don't seem to have that issue. Gone to 8" dock spikes for anything not in pavement, and the trusty 20d for temps on line crossings and such.
In our Northern area, if the head pops, it only takes 2-3 seasons and what you will find is a small rusty hole, and when you dig you will find those small side ribs are very sharp shards of metal left in the sides of the hole. You can guess how I know. That hole will still get you a bit of a sniff with the detector though, no chance with the old PKs.
A pipe finder will not detect the stem of a mag nail very well, but a standard VLF metal detector sure will.
Nails are not Monuments. they are temporary things.
this was a known fact when I started out in 1970, physics has not changed
real Monuments last much longer.
quit fighting it and consider changing your methods and procedures.
Peter Ehlert, post: 381132, member: 60 wrote: Nails are not Monuments. they are temporary things.
this was a known fact when I started out in 1970, physics has not changed
real Monuments last much longer.quit fighting it and consider changing your methods and procedures.
Sometimes I need a control point in asphalt, my experience is that a Mag Nail stays put around here. You need to check things, of course, when returning.
Not sure I know of any alternatives I like. I like not setting up on asphalt, but sometimes it is what is needed.
Not sure what you mean by "Real Monument". Some here decry rebar...some nails...Just curious.
Would this type of monument or "control point" perhaps be a consideration. Newly developed for protection, preservation and longevity when set. In California this monument is commonly used, but rarely countersunk, now it can all be done in under one minute.
Launched in March of this year and making a change for many surveyors, angencies and developers.
Please visit site and see video. Thanks everyone.
Video:
[MEDIA=youtube]Z0RZc4BBrNk[/MEDIA]
Teddy Ohana
Developer - PLS (CA)
Lead and tack with a tag is old hat, counter sunk is best... nice looking tool. Done many but hand, no big deal unless you have dozens to set.
Sidewalk panels are not so secure, utility crews knock them out frequently... but Curbs seem to be sacred and the tunnel under them.
OhanaPLS, post: 381159, member: 10859 wrote: Would this type of monument or "control point" perhaps be a consideration. Newly developed for protection, preservation and longevity when set. In California this monument is commonly used, but rarely countersunk, now it can all be done in under one minute.
Launched in March of this year and making a change for many surveyors, angencies and developers.
Please visit site and see video. Thanks everyone.Teddy
Developer - PLS (CA)
That is a pretty neat tool. What would that set you back?
OhanaPLS, post: 381159, member: 10859 wrote: Would this type of monument or "control point" perhaps be a consideration. Newly developed for protection, preservation and longevity when set. In California this monument is commonly used, but rarely countersunk, now it can all be done in under one minute.
Launched in March of this year and making a change for many surveyors, angencies and developers.
Please visit site and see video. Thanks everyone.Video:
[MEDIA=youtube]Z0RZc4BBrNk[/MEDIA]Teddy Ohana
Developer - PLS (CA)
Nice praise from our friend Jim Frame.
I wonder if this might support the mag nail/washer larger sizes we use here in Indiana someday?
No need for lead or brass. Just a friction fit for the various other mag nail/washer size combinations available. I would love to be setting these monuments counter sunk more often in pavement situations.
We are currently in California surveyor magazine.
Page 7
https://www.californiasurveyors.org/calsurveyor/CalSurv183.pdf
Hollandbriscoe, post: 381168, member: 9155 wrote: That is a pretty neat tool. What would that set you back?
Try working heavy construction.
During a recent three year span the average life expectancy of a control point was 5 days.
A network of prisms mounted on adjacent end pile and masonry buildings was the only way to stay sane.
Brad Ott, post: 381169, member: 197 wrote: Nice praise from our friend Jim Frame.
I wonder if this might support the mag nail/washer larger sizes we use here in Indiana someday?
No need for lead or brass. Just a friction fit for the various other mag nail/washer size combinations available. I would love to be setting these monuments counter sunk more often in pavement situations.
We do have the patent for larger sizes and are working on fitting them into our system. Since I'm a California surveyor, the mission was to accommodate the typical sizes used here in CA (3/4" brass tag)
Currently we have over 150 users and all have been very satisfied. I'm hoping to hear more from other states. Thank you for your interest in our product, it's been a long road to make it perfect for both surveyor and the public.
Teddy Ohana
PLS - California
Had this brilliant idea during the recession of getting some washers with our company name stamped on top with hopes of scraping up some new work. They were a disaster. They either pop out easier, or someone can pull them up with no problem because the washer keeps them above ground some, or I've got calls from people pissed off because we've set these around. No longer use them
That O-tag system has a lot in common with these Bernsten Plugs and associated countersink drill bit, which are in common use in the Portland area these days.
