Might need an ALTA, but not sure...

Your client needs to supply the title commitment and complete the items in Table A.

Find out if they are going to do any future construction and if they need/want elevations. Then proceed in accordance with the "normal" table A requirements.

Do the research yourself, just like any other project, and when you approach completion find out who the lender is and certify accordingly...

Note ON THE PLAN that the title report was NOT furnished by the client, as required...

Not a big deal really... i am finding that more and more high end residential buyers want an ALTA survey for the homes, especially the ones that are not financed..

Dtp

> How does that work?
You really can't complete an ALTA, but you could do a boundary and topo of the site in conformance with basic ALTA spec's (or whatever you negotiate with your client), than add the names to the certification and any easements, etc., of record that the title report shows when you do get one.

Friends don't let friends sign non-standard certifications. So you already know how that will read.

Your client is taking a chance. This will cost more than it would if done properly - especially if they decide they need Table A items. Get a deposit because the deal might not happen, the client walks away, and you will be left with an invoice and some wallpaper. In the meantime, take the opportunity to educate your client.

This is for a 150 unit apartment complex that my company designed using boundary work completed by another firm, and aerial topo that we ran the control for. I've done no real boundary work on this to date as we are not changing any lines, so it's been all engineering up to now. He wants to start building this summer.

The original survey company is out of the picture, so now it's dumped onto me at the end of the process, to start from scratch and complete an ALTA.

-V

> This is for a 150 unit apartment complex that my company designed ...
So you are saying the client is solid. Okay. It's currently bare ground, you have topo in the can, and they want to go to construction soon. Okay. They may need an ALTA on short notice, and you need a boundary you can hang your hat on.

You can't complete an ALTA until you have a title commitment but you can get it about 90%. But I wouldn't let any grass grow over that boundary, if you know what I mean.

shoot, send it on over to me 🙂 I'll be halfway there tomorrow...(Kingston area)

I disagree with the previous statements. There is nothing to prevent you from starting without a title commitment or report. you are permitted under the ALTA regs to make modifications as negotiated between you and the client.

Why can't a client obtain an ALTA survey without a title commitment? In other words, what part of the ALTA regs require a title insurance company involvement?

I guess I feel a little better about it now that I've had time to fume. He needs in 30 days and I'm already two weeks out with my schedule. I guess once I get the boundary done I can hand him an "ALTA" with no certification, no table A items listed, and the "no title provided" note like Don mentioned, and have him chase down the rest.

I hate doing things backwards, but I guess I should get used to it. Thanks for listening.

-V

Just get it prepared as far as you can, then tell him that you have done all you can without the title commitment, and you will need 48 hours (or whatever works for you) to put a polish on it and deliver after the title commitment is in hand.

I don't think you are going to get a lot of sympathy hereabouts for being too busy.

FWIW - I got in the habit at a previous firm of putting a line item for an ALTA Survey as the first item in any contract that was going to be a commercial or multifamily development; 99% of the time they're going to need it eventually (75% of the time they're going to need it more than once through the life cycle of the project).

LOL, I'd share if I could.

-V

I would also confirm with the client immediately that he wants you to continue as such and that you cannot totally complete the survey without the title commitment, etc. A simple written agreement might be in order.

> I disagree with the previous statements. There is nothing to prevent you from starting without a title commitment or report. you are permitted under the ALTA regs to make modifications as negotiated between you and the client.
I agree that you can start one, but ...

> Why can't a client obtain an ALTA survey without a title commitment? In other words, what part of the ALTA regs require a title insurance company involvement?
That would be Section 4....
4. Records Research - It is recognized that for the performance of an ALTA/ACSM Land Title Survey, the surveyor will be provided with appropriate data which can be relied upon in the preparation of the survey. The request for an ALTA/ACSM Land Title Survey shall set forth the current record description of the property to be surveyed or, in the case of an original survey, the current record description of the parent parcel that contains the property to be surveyed. Complete copies of the most recent title commitment, the current record description of the property to be surveyed (or, in the case of an original survey, the parent parcel), the current record descriptions of adjoiners, any record easements benefiting the property, the record easements or servitudes and covenants burdening the property (all hereinafter referred to collectively as "Record Documents"), documents of record referred to in the Record Documents, documents necessary to ascertain, if possible, the junior/senior relationship pursuant to Section 6.B.vii. below, and any other documents containing desired appropriate information affecting the property being surveyed, and to which the ALTA/ACSM Land Title Survey shall make reference, shall be provided to the surveyor for use in conducting the survey.

Yup, nothing about a title commitment report in there.....

nor does it state who must supply the report. A current deed could be interpreted as "appropriate data".

Here in MA we have requirements that supersede the ALTA requirements, which is where VH happens to be.

I get very amused at the amount of surveyors that try to talk themselves out of a project instead of assisting the client...

Read it again

"Complete copies of the most recent title commitment,..."

Read it again>Thanks KScott

I stand corrected.....

but I also stand by my point that the client can provide only what is available..

And also, although the American Land Title Assoc. made up these requirements there is nothing that prevents us from using those same requirements on any survey!

Read it again>Thanks KScott

> ..although the American Land Title Assoc. made up these requirements there is nothing that prevents us from using those same requirements on any survey!

I guess the point is that what makes it an ALTA survey is not that the map looks like an ALTA Survey or even that the map show everything an ALTA would, but that the ALTA process was followed to create the map. There is some small chance that the difference could become significant on the witness stand. If the process is followed deficiencies in the research are (at least partially) the responsibility of the title company. If the process is not followed that responsibility is solely the surveyor's.

I'd take the chance and move ahead, but I wouldn't deliver anything with the letters ALTA on it without that title commitment first having been supplied to me by the insurer.

Tell the client that you will be glad to provide him a Class A survey in accordance with the state's Minimum Technical Standards. Upon receipt of the items required for a proper ALTA, you will be glad to add the additional items for an additional fee for items not covered in your state's Minimum Technical Stabdards. On barren lands there will not be many additional items to add. Bill them for Court House research for title and easement info. Then it may be simply adding the ALTA Certification, the exclusion notes and the ALTA title to the plat. If you do not get the ALTA info before closing, he will still have a valid plat. If the bank then wants the ALTA, tell them to send you the documents required for review.
I don't get real concerned about ALTA's. They have no enforcement authority. As long as the state board is happy, I am happy.

Read it again>Thanks KScott

I agree. The plan will not say ALTA until I have the title commitment.

Don, I also agree with trying to help the client anyway I can, but this guy can get pushy. For example, on this project he recently got us final architecturals on the apartment buildings that are significantly bigger than shown on the design. The added impervious pushes us into a MEPA filing. He wanted us to just update the plan, and have the engineer stamp showing no significant changes.

He got annoyed when our PE wouldnt lie for him. I'm not taking any chances with this guy.

-V

and the Schedule B exception documents.....