This month's Lucas column in POB is very good. I think he is spot on, unfortunately.
There are several reasons for this:
1. GIS market is bigger, and instrument manufacturers are targeting them.
2. Even POB itself is targeting them.
3. Money talks
4. We surveyors are not promoting our profession. We are stuck. We are not innovating to keep up with innovation.
Boundary surveying has always been a miniscule fraction of professional surveying practice, hasn't it? The loss of the other work through the combined effects of technological innovation and a changing economy makes this stand in stark relief.
It seems to me that now we have far, far too many surveyors in supply to serve the boundary surveying demand. They have nothing else to do.
Last night I was listening to the "Marginal Legal Advice" show on the AM radio and a guy called in claiming his fence was 5" inside the property line and he didn't want his neighbor using those 5 inches. After a few minutes, his suggestion was to have an attorney write the neighbor a letter stating that the 5 inches was his and that he should refrain from using it.
Not once did I hear the word "survey" or "surveyor"...bypassed once again!
Plane,
I agree. In some areas of the country I believe it is already at the point where there are so many surveyors that everyone is not going to be able to continue sending 2 to 4 crews out the door each and every day to do boundary work. In my area of North Florida, in my opinion, we're already at the point where there are so many surveyors trying to service the boundary surveying market that in a few years boundary work will be the province of solo surveyors. With the advances of technology/faster equipment -- and with everyone having access to it -- it is only a matter of time before this type of work will be done by one-person shops.
> This month's Lucas column in POB is very good. I think he is spot on, unfortunately.
>
> There are several reasons for this:
>
> 1. GIS market is bigger, and instrument manufacturers are targeting them.
> 2. Even POB itself is targeting them.
> 3. Money talks
> 4. We surveyors are not promoting our profession. We are stuck. We are not innovating to keep up with innovation.
What I got out of the Lucas article was that he was in favor of ceding high quality positioning to other folks since that was "expert measuring" and to be avoided at all costs. But he did want to keep the "land surveyors" in control of the cloth tape and a pad of boundary agreement forms to convince unsuspecting members of the public (and possibly their lienholders) to sign, maybe expanding into drafting wills and handling routine uncontested divorces where child custody wasn't involved.
When you boil down the thin syrup of the article, he didn't think that land surveyors should be:
- experts at making measurements,
- diligent investigators who could find old boundary evidence, or
- careful researchers.
He just wanted surveyors to do nothing that would might bother a landowner or his or her neighbors. It's basically a variation on the mortgage loan inspection, but with written agreements to dress it all up.
Kent,
That is an interesting take on his article. I am going to re-read it with your perspective in mind. Good thoughts to ponder as I read it.
Lucas Column is Good- (NOT)
Lucas's lack of field experience comes through in this article, The future of land surveying
let's take this comment:
"...3. If you ever find yourself “staking out” a boundary while ostensibly performing a retracement survey, then you are part of the problem..."
Many times this is how you get close so you know where to look.
His lack of vision on measurement technology truly is amazing.
“Even if technology doesn’t put traditional land surveying out of business…”
I have yet to see GPS, GIS, Laser Scanning or any other “technology” put someone “out of business”. Many times I have seen Surveyors put out of business because they REFUSE to embrace technology.
Like it or not, FORMAL EDUCATION is a more likely avenue to teach most people to embrace technology. Now, when Mr. Lucas derides “expert measurers” by default he also derides the “technologies” those folks use.
We must be boundary surveyors AND expert measurers if we want to survive as a Profession. Education is a integral part of helping our Profession survive.
As independent and responsible as our Profession likes to Portray ourselves as, we seem to blame others for our short comings.
Lucas Column is Good- (NOT)
> We must be boundary surveyors AND expert measurers if we want to survive as a Profession. Education is a integral part of helping our Profession survive.
>
> As independent and responsible as our Profession likes to Portray ourselves as, we seem to blame others for our short comings.
Yes. The scenario that seems pretty clear to me is that the general population of prospective clients simply has less money available for the purchase of services. Economic factors more than anything else are the root causes of much of what one sees.
Lucas Column is Good- (NOT)
I think what Mr. Lucas is referring to when he states "staking out a boundary" is the practice of holding one corner, rotating to a second corner using a deed bearing and then proceeding to "stake" the deed on the ground, ignoring existing evidence and creating what he fondly refers to as a pincushion corner.
Lucas Column is Good- (NOT)
> "...3. If you ever find yourself “staking out” a boundary while ostensibly performing a retracement survey, then you are part of the problem..."
> Many times this is how you get close so you know where to look.
I think that what Lucas is referring to is the practice of precalcing record boundary coordinates, jumping on a couple of found points in the neighborhood for control, and then staking out - and monumenting - the remaining corners without further analysis or search.
EDIT: Just as Lookinatchya described while I was writing.
> We must be boundary surveyors AND expert measurers if we want to survive as a Profession.
Being an expert measurer is a basic minimum skill that all surveyors should possess. A problem I see is that too many do not.
Still, a surveyor who is well versed in boundary matters can compensate for shortcomings in measuring ability to a large degree. A surveyor who is not well versed in boundary matters cannot compensate by expert measurement.
IMO, the problem is not too many expert measurers, but too many that are neither expert measurers nor competent boundary determiners.
Lucas Column is Good- (NOT)
That is what he meant, contrary to what those hyperventilating think.
Lucas Column
I doesn't matter how precise you measure to some position, or how much you least square the heck out of it or tie it into some other points or world coordinate system, if you measured to the wrong point and not the legally established boundary location it's wrong (very precisely wrong). I think that is the point Lucas makes. Before a surveyor puts his technology tools and skills in high gear the surveyor should consider the common law.
Lucas's point is that many surveyors have the technical measurement skills (quickly being gutted by may other peoples access and use of), but are severely limited in the knowledge of the law needed to locate boundaries.
From my view, if it comes down to strictly measurements and slapping math on the ground, there is many other groups or professions that can do this work. Since many surveyors don't want to learn the law and apply the law, what's the point of having them. Any body with knowledge of math and a cell phone will be able to spread the GIS parcel layer around at that point. How many landowners are really going to care about the last centimeter?
both of their seminars are entertaining in my opinion- after a Dallas convention at the watering hole 
Lucas Column
My take on the fact that surveyors have very little knowledge of the law is that even in the Degree programs available today, very little surveying law is taught. What we learn is usually the result of our own investigation. Sadly, I have found most surveyors lacking in this knowledge. Myself included.
Been to his seminar...Read most of his material....What I get is basically a surveyor gone bad and a lawyer who thinks he knows surveying. Doesn't know squat about boundaries, tries to impress surveyors with bs about what are his inadequacy about being a boundary surveyor. Another once surveyor gone lawyer with a dog and pony show. As I quote from his seminar about one of the most important aspects of boundary surveying in our state as "Irrelevant", I say he is irrelevant.
Pablo B-)
:good: Exactly my view.
Review his Curriculum Vitae and check out the university where he got his AS in Surveying.
Decide for yourself about his credibility
Lucas vitae
Wonder what the dates are associated with his experience, degrees, etc. I guess not that important?
ICS
> Review his Curriculum Vitae and check out the university where he got his AS in Surveying.
>
> Decide for yourself about his credibility
I am a 1983 graduate of ICS and feel I am quite credible. 😉
DDSM :beer:
[sarcasm]Yet somehow he rose to prominence in a profession (and message board) full of MIT, Stanford, and Caltech grads...[/sarcasm]
Come on guys. Current best case (ABET) scenario is NoName State University or satellite campus. Is ICS demonstrably inferior? Is Lucas?