Around here most hold the subdivision plan and go from there.
I think each situation is different.
I don't see how you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the pin/monument is "original". Picture yourself on the stand:
Lawyer: So, Mr. Codespoti (thats me)...you say that this is the "original" survey marker from 1963, what evidence to you have that it is? I mean you were born in 1971, so...
Me:...um, well, um...shucks..
I find it very difficult to prove that any pin/monument is original and undisturbed.
Think about this. Are you prepared do deal with the owner and bank that says the gave a mortgage on a 80x125 lot which, is recorded via subdivision, and deed, and know you say its 78x124, and therefore non-compliant, and now the bank is ticked because you Mr. Surveyor, have caused an issue with the mortgage?
Have fun with that...
> I don't think I have ever done a survey where I wanted to "hold" every pin found.
So what do you "hold"? Bearings and distances to block corners? Section corners? Back of curbs? Everything we do today is relative to someone's work in the past. Where do you stop "correcting" the past and consider your POB gospel?
Don't misunderstand, I've done the "iron pipe found 1.3' west", etc. routine many times, but I do my best not to.
Joe, I disagree. With the plat as evidence, I would think you would have to prove the pin in NOT original. How do you prove its not original? If every single pin measured very close to platted measurments, and then one is out of position, I don't have a problem calling that one disturbed. In this case, there is more than one pin that doesn't fit perfect, so that leads me to believe they are original.
You can play all sorts of what ifs. What if you don't use one of the pins and set a knew one. This then puts the adjoiners house over the side yard setback since he used the pin you ignored to build his house.
yep- if MY rods have been "disturbed" - i am going to move them - somebody else's - i need to look at all the facts
seems what you describe is that the overall length is good and matches the plat, and a few of the front lot corner pins miss by either one foot or a couple of tenths. Do all the rear pins fit well?
If I understand this right, I would look closely to see if those pins NOT fitting were possibly re-set (as suggested during a water meter install, or some other utility construction). I remember having to set lot corners prior to having street lights and water meters installed, and those rebars were almost always knocked out during construction, and sometimes re-set by others where they "thought" they should be.
hard to say from my desk here - use your best judgement.
Jim
You were supposed to have noticed the sarcasm, even though the sarcasm font was not used.
You shouldn't have to prove it original. The presumption would be that a monument is original, and you examine its character, position, and surroundings to see if there is evidence to show otherwise.
Easy fix. Sledgehammer those puppies to the right spots and you're good to go.:-)
OK Nate .....
I cannot see it as wise to build a PERFECT 10,000 sf lot, in the original sub design, when moving ANY pin, or pair of pins a tenth, or a foot, would make it non compliant. I'd sit down with the planning commission, and the local landowners, and either HIRE KENT Mc to survey it, and RESET all the pins within a millimeter, and set each one with a sack of quickcrete, or I'd get a tollerance variance from the planning commission.
Jus thinkin out loud.
N
> Think about this. Are you prepared do deal with the owner and bank that says the gave a mortgage on a 80x125 lot which, is recorded via subdivision, and deed, and know you say its 78x124, and therefore non-compliant, and now the bank is ticked because you Mr. Surveyor, have caused an issue with the mortgage?
>
> Have fun with that...
Field evidence ... Check
Record evidence ... Check
Occupation observed ... Check
Solution (based on above and other information) ... Professionally Opined
Is the mortgage company's going to be happy with me ... No!
Change my solution to make mortgage company happy ... seriously?
Coincidentally (or maybe not) the subject of Jeff Lucas's column this month
Traversing the Law: Can the Original Surveyor Blunder?
So, yes--an original surveyor setting out original boundary lines for the very first time can blunder, and that blunder can and should be corrected if found in time. These are fact-laden questions that require the gathering and evaluating of the best available evidence in any given situation and the rendering of a well-reasoned opinion of survey. Keep this simple thought in mind: once the status quo becomes the status quo, the courts will be loath to change it. The surveyor will need a compelling reason to so do. Much more compelling than “my computer made me do it.”
look for the monuments found and held for the original plan
those are the original monuments
the ones set by the surveyor are subsequent and therefore have less weight in a determination
last year i had the perfect example - land court plans. the latest case used subsequent monuments that were out by one foot from the original monuments. the surveyor next door held the later case for a parcel that was part of an earlier plan. the subsequent monuments became the controlling monuments for the later plan, but cannot control the earlier plan.
i have no issue with detailing a monument out from the record location. i do take issue when i tie into a plan by others and i find the monuments which are shown on the plan at the corners to be off the corners by significant amounts.
Amen. That's EXACTLY what the judge will say. Period,
Larco has it...
right. Its not the surveyor's job to ensure that a lot meets zoning criteria! Zoning may affect the original design of the lots, but has absolutely nothing to do with a resurvey.
This one is easy
How interesting! My state is contemplating new standard's that will allow a subdivision plat to be recorded without any interior monuments being set!!
This one is easy
> How interesting! My state's is contemplating new standard's that will allow a subdivision plat to be recorded without any interior monuments being set!!
I recently platted a 265 lot neo-traditional subdivision where the front corners are going to fall 3" behind the street curb and the rears are going to fall 3" behind the alley curb.
Being required to set over 500 monuments that are going to be gone 48 hours after the site grading begins would be insane. Instead the city (all our planning and subdivision regulations are at the county & municipality level rather than the state) requires the inspector see that the lot corners are in place before they will issue the final use and occupancy permit.
Evelyn, I don't know who you are, or where you are, but you are pretty smart. I agree with you. In the end of the desc. put the acreage in parenthesis, and show the real numbers around the lot.
Hey, make 'em all happy!
N
Landowners, contractors, and utilty companies move and reset monuments. Sometimes it is done with malicious intent, but generally it is done with good intentions. A landowner realized his fence is over the line, a lanscaping project tears it out, a utility company removes it, etc.
Unless you, the surveyor, were there when the monuments were first placed and also have a day to day visual of everything that has occurred since those monuments were placed, you have no clear understanding of the entire situation.
Surveyors quite often come to the wrong conclusion and accept something that is not where the original surveyor had placed it, but assume it there because of shoddy work.
It depends....as most every survey does on the situation. If the subdivision was recently completed and no houses or improvements other than roadway infrastructure have been built I would have no problem calling up the survey in question and have him review his as-staked data. With subdivisions there can be a multitude of problems that creep up between plat prep and setting the pins. The surveyor might be glad you alerted him to a potential issue and everyone can move forward.
If the subdivision is mostly built out or if one of the adjoiners has been built on you cannot come in after the fact and move an original monument that has been relied upon by the public. At that point in time its' too late, hold the mons.
Larco has it...he does?
I still can't prove or disprove that some unmarked rebar, is an original undisturbed corner, and if 3 out of 4 pins agree, then I am going to view the one that doesn't as suspect.
Maybe where you practice zoning has nothing to do with it, but around here it sure does. If decide a lot is 2' short of zoning criteria, its going to cost a lot of money to get that lot thru ZBA.
All I'm saying is you better do the proper research to defend your opinion. What works in one jurisdiction may not fly in another.
Whats really sad is that most older subdivision I work in have very little evidence left behind anyway. so for me this is mostly a moot point.
