UNLESS they Survey for 3 days with a Rittenhouse compass, and chain.
And, then perform a retracement survey with a TRANSIT and TAPE around 3 Sections of land.
This would tend to ROUND OUT the education for the new folks coming into the profession.
I am seeing some fine surveying, and I am seeing some weird pin cushions.
It'd really put the pin cushions in perspective!
N
Prior to getting my license, I had worked on a single job in my entire career that was on land that at one time was sectionalized. So I don't think you're idea is valid.
For areas with the PLSS.
For non PLSS areas, just go USE the old equipment. For a couple of days. And, then compare it with the modern coords.
Nate, I have met a small handful of licensed surveyors who came out of school who could not even set up an instrument. I am in agreement with your suggestion. How can they sign off on work, and agree that it was done correctly if they have no idea what it takes to do the work correctly? How can they appreciate the work done by the past generations if they have no concept of how the past generations did their work?
How can they ACCEPT or REJECT with understanding, IF they have NEVER used the equipment?
definitely some kind of balance has to be struck- i'll leave that to others to figure out.
alls i know is when i sat for the exam (way back when) a vanload of students/recent grads from a surveying program down on the coast joined me in the test taking exercise. and believe me, i try like hell to avoid assuming too much at first glance, but nary a one of them even had a sun tan. i couldn't help but assume they were likely to be pencil- er, cad- whipping wizards, and conversely a little lacking in the "hands on" department.
But my Javad LS told me to put it there!! :imp:
I was lucky - I was taught surveying fundamentals in college with a transit and chain, balancing traverses by hand, no computer. The RPLS who taught the course made sure we understood boundary descriptions, took us to county courthouses for research, and made us do platting. We balanced out that with instruction in GIS and he brought in his personal total station for us to use in our class. Then I went out to the wilds and surveyed in private before spending 9 years surveying for a public entity. I started in Texas - no PLSS system there - and have spent the last decade in Missouri - PLSS with a twist.
You can't beat field experience. You have to know what its like to stick a shovel in the ground and know if you are digging where others have done before. You have to understand the fundamentals of what it means to follow in the footsteps. I have been fortunate to survey a whole section (unusual in an urban area) and US Surveys and city blocks.
Surveying is an apprenticeship profession. We don't become good surveyors without spending time with good surveyors - both in the office and in the field. But that circles back to so many 1-man shops and 1-man crews that we can't train up surveyors the way we used to without investing in them. And that is a challenge of itself.
So, I do think that surveyors must spend time in the field. Maybe not surveying old school but definitely surveying with old surveyors. I think we also need to be asking more of the crews that we send out to the field.
If anyone has a solution, I think the profession would be most interested in hearing it.
...and that old pipe I landed next to looked really old, it was probably on NAD27, so I ripped it out and put my NAD83 (2011) epoch 2010.00 pipe in
headywest, post: 385363, member: 9223 wrote: If anyone has a solution, I think the profession would be most interested in hearing it.
Lately, I have been calling surveyors and asking why they did what they did rather than just saying nothing and do what I do. I guess I am at a stage in my life when I don't care what they think and perhaps I will embolden them to do the same. In this "fast paced" time we need to make time to understand and just not react.
Not to hijack this but how many crews and jobs can one be personally responsible for?
I've never surveyed without a TS. But I explain it to my dad that when I do a 'stakeout' and I'm 'off' an existing point, I pretend I'm surveying with a transit and tape and came from down the road and landed where I did. I then say I would be happy I came so close and not see it as me being right and that's off. He argues that 'how do I know the point is right and it can be wrong"..... I don't make a pin cushion unless there is something definitely wrong or disturbed.
Nate The Surveyor, post: 385337, member: 291 wrote: UNLESS they Survey for 3 days with a Rittenhouse compass, and chain.
And, then perform a retracement survey with a TRANSIT and TAPE around 3 Sections of land.
This would tend to ROUND OUT the education for the new folks coming into the profession.
I am seeing some fine surveying, and I am seeing some weird pin cushions.
It'd really put the pin cushions in perspective!
N
If an education is required, it should have classes that teach how surveys were once done. When i went to school for Surveying we had to start out adding, subtracting and multiplying numbers long hand, and using sine/cosine tables and logarithms. We learned to read a transit and "throw" a steel tape (which we called a chain. If you know how things were done originally you not only know what kind of precision to expect, but you also can understand where errors or busts might take place. I remember Gene Kooper finding a bust in the calculation of a solar observation done by the original mining-claim surveyor. How do you figure these things out if you don't understand the fundamentals behind them. Dropping a chain in a mile measure, slope chaining, solar compass errors, transit busts....etc
I think the weakest area in surveying is good solid proper retracement. Unless we use their equipment, and do what they did, (even just for a class) then we really don't comprehend retracement.
N
Nate The Surveyor, post: 385386, member: 291 wrote: I think the weakest area in surveying is good solid proper retracement. Unless we use their equipment, and do what they did, (even just for a class) then we really don't comprehend retracement.
N
Not only know but understand. We can put all the damn math to a survey, but the truth is how did it get there! Comparing my high accuracy survey to a survey done with a chain is a no brainier. Even though some where very good... mistakes were and still are made today.
Daniel Ralph, post: 385371, member: 8817 wrote: Lately, I have been calling surveyors and asking why they did what they did rather than just saying nothing and do what I do. I guess I am at a stage in my life when I don't care what they think and perhaps I will embolden them to do the same. In this "fast paced" time we need to make time to understand and just not react.
Not to hijack this but how many crews and jobs can one be personally responsible for?
I similarly reach out to other surveyors. I just did an ALTA out of town and called the son of the original surveyor to see if he could point me to something that I needed that wasn't in the title. He replied in a day with exactly what I needed. Needless to say, I owe him a beer.
It is tough because we are competitors but at the same time we need to foster the community.
Nate The Surveyor, post: 385337, member: 291 wrote: UNLESS they Survey for 3 days with a Rittenhouse compass, and chain.
And, then perform a retracement survey with a TRANSIT and TAPE around 3 Sections of land.
This would tend to ROUND OUT the education for the new folks coming into the profession.
I am seeing some fine surveying, and I am seeing some weird pin cushions.
It'd really put the pin cushions in perspective!
N
hell I would pay good money to do a survey with a Rittenhouse compass 🙂
Everyone needs to start with the words in the deed end of things before ever thinking of going out to the field and measuring anything. What does each word in the deed really tell you? Why was that word used as opposed to another that seems to mean the same thing to most people? Why are the units used so weird by today's standards? What the heck is a rod/perch/vara/smoot? What's the difference between by/with/along? Did they really mean a quarter of a mile or one quarter of the existing mile or one half of the distance between two section corner monuments that existed in the year the first description was written or did they really mean 1320.0000000000 feet by my measure from whatever monument I find in place today? Who knows the correct answers to all of these questions for my specific project? Wait a minute. This deed says the west 1320 feet of the northwest quarter of the section but the adjoiner's deed says the east half of the northwest quarter of the section. What if it's not exactly 2640.0000000000 feet long? Which one's right and which one's wrong?
Once you start to understand all of those complexities then maybe, just maybe, you should be allowed to go to the field to start learning about how to locate existing monuments versus locating trash and being able to tell which is which.
Nate The Surveyor, post: 385337, member: 291 wrote: UNLESS they Survey for 3 days with a Rittenhouse compass, and chain.
And, then perform a retracement survey with a TRANSIT and TAPE around 3 Sections of land.
This would tend to ROUND OUT the education for the new folks coming into the profession.
I am seeing some fine surveying, and I am seeing some weird pin cushions.
It'd really put the pin cushions in perspective!
N
As a new articling student I disagree. This would be unnecessary torture for members and clients alike.
No clients involved. Simply go and do it to have an appreciation of those who made the footprints we are to follow. In surveying, a very strong appreciation of the work and those who did it in the decades and centuries preceding our own time is absolutely essential to doing our own work properly.