Greg Rodger, post: 385396, member: 11989 wrote: As a new articling student I disagree. This would be unnecessary torture for members and clients alike.
I have been at this since I was 8 yrs old. So, I could have a point of view that differs from yours.
Nate
For those in PLSSia, the experience of chaining around a single section and then making the crossing runs to set a center corner per "the Bible" would be challenge enough for most newcomers. Especially when the vegetation traversed through is more than head high and it is impossible to stay on any of the "true" lines because of existing tree rows, fences and other obstructions. Once completed the learner should then go back and do the same job using a total station. Finally, go back and attempt to do the same job using nothing but direct GPS shots. After all that, analyze how the job might have been done differently 140 or so years earlier and whether or not the monuments used were in existence at that time. Then stop and reflect on whether or not a pincushion should be set.
Greg Rodger, post: 385396, member: 11989 wrote: As a new articling student I disagree. This would be unnecessary torture for members and clients alike.
Trust me, you must know the fundamentals and history of any profession to truly understand its future before you can fully be of use in the present.
Holy Cow, post: 385410, member: 50 wrote: For those in PLSSia, the experience of chaining around a single section and then making the crossing runs to set a center corner per "the Bible" would be challenge enough for most newcomers. Especially when the vegetation traversed through is more than head high and it is impossible to stay on any of the "true" lines because of existing tree rows, fences and other obstructions. Once completed the learner should then go back and do the same job using a total station. Finally, go back and attempt to do the same job using nothing but direct GPS shots. After all that, analyze how the job might have been done differently 140 or so years earlier and whether or not the monuments used were in existence at that time. Then stop and reflect on whether or not a pincushion should be set.
I could hardly agree more. This would bring many things to light in the minds of many a student.
Including, that fact that something got set sloppy, because I was tired!
Greg Rodger, post: 385396, member: 11989 wrote: As a new articling student I disagree. This would be unnecessary torture for members and clients alike.
Trust me, surveying with new technology is still torture some days.
Greg Rodger, post: 385396, member: 11989 wrote: As a new articling student I disagree. This would be unnecessary torture for members and clients alike.
well....you made me look up "articling student"........good job. Could you imagine an engineer who has a computer to determine stresses and strains, not understanding the fundamentals behind it? How about a doctor who can look up the right pills to prescribe without knowing about the science and physiology of the patient?
You can do it as an amateur, but a professional needs to understand the fundamentals.
Tom Adams, post: 385426, member: 7285 wrote: well....you made me look up "articling student"........good job. Could you imagine an engineer who has a computer to determine stresses and strains, not understanding the fundamentals behind it? How about a doctor who can look up the right pills to prescribe without knowing about the science and physiology of the patient?
You can do it as an amateur, but a professional needs to understand the fundamentals.
Now I feel the need to look up "articling student".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articled_clerk
An articled clerk, also known as an articling student, is an apprentice in a professional firm in Commonwealth countries; generally the term arises in the accountancy and legal professions. The articled clerk signs a contract, known as "articles of clerkship", committing to a fixed period of employment.
Holy Cow, post: 385402, member: 50 wrote: No clients involved. Simply go and do it to have an appreciation of those who made the footprints we are to follow. In surveying, a very strong appreciation of the work and those who did it in the decades and centuries preceding our own time is absolutely essential to doing our own work properly.
We learned the theory and principles involved but actually doing it is kind of absurd considering the amount of surveyors out there who are having trouble adapting to new technologies. I'd rather have people 100% confident in how RTK works and when it doesn't work than someone who is real good with archaic techniques. There is a fine line between appreciating what our ancestors did and suffering archaic techniques for the sake of historical appreciation. I would not expect medical doctors to be up to par on 100 year old surgical techniques if better techniques exist today.
Scott Ellis, post: 385429, member: 7154 wrote: Now I feel the need to look up "articling student".
I agree, we studied the fundamentals but actually surveying with instruments that are neither made nor serviced anymore is fruitless. I would never invest in such instruments neither would the majority of professional surveyors so making new members familiar with them is no more than hazing.
A Harris, post: 385413, member: 81 wrote: Trust me, you must know the fundamentals and history of any profession to truly understand its future before you can fully be of use in the present.
I agree, we studied the fundamentals but actually surveying with instruments that are neither made nor serviced anymore is fruitless. I would never invest in such instruments neither would the majority of professional surveyors so making new members familiar with them is no more than hazing.
Tom Adams, post: 385426, member: 7285 wrote: well....you made me look up "articling student"........good job. Could you imagine an engineer who has a computer to determine stresses and strains, not understanding the fundamentals behind it? How about a doctor who can look up the right pills to prescribe without knowing about the science and physiology of the patient?
You can do it as an amateur, but a professional needs to understand the fundamentals.
Most engineers study stresses and strains in school then use a computer the rest of their career. Most surveyors learn what a Gunters chain is but never touch one.
What we don't know CAN kill us.
Or the profession in its entirety over time.
Historical facts can be very useful in retracement. For example knowing that sometimes chains got broken and were still used for laying out lots - this can explain why some frontages are a foot short over the entire course of a township.
I had a lot of professors who stressed this theory and historical background but there is a fine line between useful information that will serve the profession and well wasting time that could be better spent on what students will actually encounter. At the end of the day no one seriously expects someone to actually use a Gunter's chain. In a profession that is struggling with the importance of rapidly advancing technologies like UAV's and laser scanners - it is important to know the history yes - but more important to understand the newer technology so that the profession doesn't lag behind the amateur world.
What I'm arguing is that you cannot properly perform a retracement survey, until you "feel the pain, of the nail, inside the boot, of the man who originally performed the survey. "
I have spent many hours, days, Weeks, and years, behind a transit, much like this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/H-M-POOL-EASTON-MASS-SURVEYORS-TRANSIT-circa-1850-/252487075481?hash=item3ac9670699:g:kU4AAOSwLnBXUv1q
Ours was a 1923 Adolph Leitz Transit, "San Francisco". The rack on the focus needed repair, for ALL the time I used it. You turned the focus knob, while gently pulling on the scope tube, until it was past the "bad part". The fulcrum on the compass was also worn out. To get a good reading, you had to gently tap the side of the whole transit, until the compass fully settled down.
Just knowing these things, makes me to "Know where we came from" in greater depth. I was required to write down compass on ALL shots, to keep blunders out. This was my teenage years. I am not suggesting that students be required to "make a living" or perform for a paying client with one of these. I am suggesting that IF they spent a month doing this, they would have a greater understanding for the rejection of a pin, that is a foot off. In their modern opinion. I am suggesting that knowing where we came from, will better put us on the right track for the future.
A survey is like having a kid. You care about it forever.
When you reject a pin, that is 0.70' "Off" you are hurting some surveyors child. (assuming a surveyor set it)
Land Surveying is like a strange combination of accuracy, and truth. Accuracy is how close to the real number our coordinates really are. Truth is if it's based on the right stuff in the first place.
The land surveyor lives at the conjunction of technology, history, methods, Law, Common law, Policy, and the client, and clients neighbor's desires. Often something has to give. If we are making HISTORY give, and holding to a clients desire, (or the neighbors) we are probably not doing it right.
There is a time and season for all things. Proper assembly requires understanding of how it got there.
I hope everybody comes away from this thread, with a renewed ambition to become a solid conjunction of all of the above, and then some. I'm sure I have left something out. And, that you have some money left over, after doing all that!
Nate
Greg Rodger, post: 385443, member: 11989 wrote: I would not expect medical doctors to be up to par on 100 year old surgical techniques if better techniques exist today.
I WOULD expect that if we were working on the same patient.
In land surveying, it IS the same patient!
N
Nate The Surveyor, post: 385452, member: 291 wrote: What I'm arguing is that you cannot properly perform a retracement survey, until you "feel the pain, of the nail, inside the boot, of the man who originally performed the survey. "
I have spent many hours, days, Weeks, and years, behind a transit, much like this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/H-M-POOL-EASTON-MASS-SURVEYORS-TRANSIT-circa-1850-/252487075481?hash=item3ac9670699:g:kU4AAOSwLnBXUv1q
Ours was a 1923 Adolph Leitz Transit, "San Francisco". The rack on the focus needed repair, for ALL the time I used it. You turned the focus knob, while gently pulling on the scope tube, until it was past the "bad part". The fulcrum on the compass was also worn out. To get a good reading, you had to gently tap the side of the whole transit, until the compass fully settled down.
Just knowing these things, makes me to "Know where we came from" in greater depth. I was required to write down compass on ALL shots, to keep blunders out. This was my teenage years. I am not suggesting that students be required to "make a living" or perform for a paying client with one of these. I am suggesting that IF they spent a month doing this, they would have a greater understanding for the rejection of a pin, that is a foot off. In their modern opinion. I am suggesting that knowing where we came from, will better put us on the right track for the future.
A survey is like having a kid. You care about it forever.
When you reject a pin, that is 0.70' "Off" you are hurting some surveyors child. (assuming a surveyor set it)
Land Surveying is like a strange combination of accuracy, and truth. Accuracy is how close to the real number our coordinates really are. Truth is if it's based on the right stuff in the first place.
The land surveyor lives at the conjunction of technology, history, methods, Law, Common law, Policy, and the client, and clients neighbor's desires. Often something has to give. If we are making HISTORY give, and holding to a clients desire, (or the neighbors) we are probably not doing it right.
There is a time and season for all things. Proper assembly requires understanding of how it got there.
I hope everybody comes away from this thread, with a renewed ambition to become a solid conjunction of all of the above, and then some. I'm sure I have left something out. And, that you have some money left over, after doing all that!Nate
I understand - this happens all the time where you find 4 bars on a corner and the palm goes to face. Too often people just blame previous work as 'wrong' and plant another bar. This is unacceptable. The original monuments are held, period. Now if the bar is leaning half a foot or bent over by a new driveway being paved - I question the bar.
Don't try it up here.....we don't have sections.
Greg, there are "No Pat Answers" you simply have to know them all, and apply the best, or most professional one. And, you have to LIVE with your mistakes, not bury them, as doctors do. A good surveyor KNOWS all the solutions, LOOKED at all the solutions, CONSIDERED all the solutions, and PROVIDED his thoughts, on his plats, so that others surveyors "Might know what he was thinking", and be inclined to FOLLOW his footsteps.
I am not in favor of the "One answer" survey. I can see a single plat, where 4 differing philosophies were applied, to 4 different corners, all at the same time. My concern is that the new up and coming surveyor KNOW and be FAMILIAR with them. So, he has a palate of colors to choose from. Not to RESTRICT him, but to EXPAND him. (and waste his time, I might add, as my brother used to say!) he he, bit of humor!
Dan Patterson, post: 385456, member: 1179 wrote: Don't try it up here.....we don't have sections.
Like Pat is saying... I had better consider the "Other ways", when going elsewhere. No problem there, Pat.