Hypothetically speaking: You are surveying for a road project that is acquiring right of way. The project just happens to go through another surveyor??s property.?ÿ A map is prepared to use in negotiations with the landowners. The landowner/surveyor calls and requests either coordinates or station/offsets for his property corners that show up on the map so he can tie the project to his boundary. ?ÿHow do you respond?
Me. "What's the difference?"
T.C. Carroll "It's the difference between right and wrong!"
Presumably the road project is funded with public dollars.?ÿ Might you be obligated to fulfill such a request from a member of the public directly impacted by the project regardless of that person's profession??ÿ Interesting question though.?ÿ I can't immediately think of a good reason to withhold information like that unless there was some kind of NDA in effect with whoever?ÿholds the prime contract for the road project.?ÿ Curious to see what others take on this is.?ÿ
"The landowner/surveyor calls and requests either coordinates or station/offsets for his property corners that show up on the map....."
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Suggest he acquire the R/W plans and interpret the information from them. If you are a subcontractor for the project with whomever do not release any information.
Or, be mister nice guy and just treat him they way you would want to be treated. ?ÿI say share the info. ?ÿSorry to disagree friend, you know I still love ya. ?ÿ
I surveyed a piece of property. While we were doing the survey a construction company was building a road through the property we were surveying. We went to their office and asked for a copy of the plans so we could complete our survey. We were told 'NO'. They would not release the information to us. We were told yes at first, but somebody higher up overruled?ÿthe people in the field office and I got an email telling us they couldn't release the information to us.
We had to request the plans through the district road manager and got everything we needed from them. I don't know why they wouldn't just give us the info. It wasn't super secret and they had the plans in full view on their wall for anybody that walked in to see.
I don't think the person's profession should have any bearing on whether you give them the information or not. The guy is a landowner in this situation. If it hasn't been released to the public yet as finished plans, then I'd advise him to wait?ÿuntil everything was completed so he doesn't end up with a plan that might change. But other than that I see no reason not to let him have what he is asking.
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DOT usually have the plans and make them available to surveyors as a pdf or pay for copies.
To not void your contract, ask your client.
I would allow another surveyor to view what I have in my office and give him time to write, sketch or take pictures only.
Around 1975 I was surveying for a new home along US59 and the guy was building his new bride her fantasy home and they wanted 2 acres that joined the r/w. During research and obtaining DOT plans I noted that they had plans to acquire 250ft more property where he wanted to build his home. After notifying him that within 20yrs he would have to rebuild his home he decided to move that far back and we placed the boundary on the planned r/w and he was very happy. He is now retired, house paid off and his custom built home is still intact and he has always remembered that I helped him.
This is the scoop. It's my property that they are severing. They are attempting to negotiate with me but the "plan" lacks so much that I can't tie it to my boundary. So I emailed the surveyor and asked for the coordinates of three corners I know they shot. Or, the stations/offsets of the same. His reply "Sorry, can't help you". He didnt have to write or type a thing, he could have told me over the phone. Besides, its information i personally think should have been there to start with. Nobody wants to share any design plans. I ended up filing an open records request so they have five days. The DOT project manager called as soon as he got the request and was hateful with his first word... Why would anyone negotiate with the DOT without having the facts? My main questions are how steep will my driveway be and how much land am i giving up. Am I asking too much? Most replied they would have helped. I know i would have recited station/offset to another surveyor if i was afraid to release anything.?ÿ
Me. "What's the difference?"
T.C. Carroll "It's the difference between right and wrong!"
I've worked for large firms with DOT contracts and we've been contractually required to defer all question from the public to the DOT representatives. ?ÿYou may be a heck of a nice guy, but I ain't gonna risk my livelihood and my families welfare to give you information to use in your negotiation with my client.?ÿ
That said, I'd probably explain it to you like that rather than just say "I can't help you". ?ÿ
Well Stacy, now the passive agressive side of me is awake. ?ÿNow you find yourself in a position to be the last guy on this leg of the project to sign over your land for their right if way needs / desires. ?ÿAfter they have paid your attorney in full and after they have paid a little more than the maximum $/acre than they have hoped / budgeted / etc, of course. ?ÿGive ??em hell.
In my work we?ÿprepare parcel plats and ROW Maps to support acquisitions all the time, and these show station and offset to the project centerline, ties to monuments, etc.--all the usual survey stuff.?ÿIf the landowner requests it, we will often send a crew out to mark the proposed acquisition on the ground with paint and lath.
It sounds like the plats and exhibits that DOT is presenting to you are so poor that you can't place them on the ground, which should be an embarrassment to them. All I can say is keep requesting information and don't sign anything until they give you everything you want. Condemnation is a long, expensive, and difficult process?ÿthat negotiators are generally very happy to avoid.
.....My main questions are how steep will my driveway be and how much land am i giving up. Am I asking too much?
What James Fleming said about DOT contractual obligations.?ÿ ??ÿ
What you do, Stacy, is refuse to agree to anything until you have answers to your questions. Which are very reasonable questions. They (DOT) will be forced to prepare detailed maps and reports for you.?ÿ
If you had been calling me I might have invited you to drop around my office for coffee, and if a coordinate list just happened to be sitting out on the coffee room table, and you took a picture of it while I was looking out the window.....?ÿ ?ÿ
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I'm not going to trash the "plan" I was given. It's obvious that it was not created for the purpose it's being used for. The really vague ties to boundaries were sufficient for its intended use I suppose. I just want to tie the survey centerline to my boundary so I can know for sure what's going on. I tried to be nice, I really did. I'm pretty sure that's over with. I'll just have them call my attorney... Wait.... I don't know who I'd tell them my attorney is if they ask. I'll figure something out because I'm not in the mood to talk to them at this point.
Me. "What's the difference?"
T.C. Carroll "It's the difference between right and wrong!"
I have contacted different offices of different officials, DOT, County commisisoners,?ÿ judges, lawers and others in charge.
The conversations start out decently until they know I am a licensed surveyor and know as much or more about the details and technical and money portions of the line item as they do.
That is when they become defensive and shutdown any possible communication.
After that it takes a specialist to talk to them that knows every detail of everything and the legal aspects of gaining information and being someone they cannot ignore.
Pull your recording device out and record every conversation with them and tell them they are being recorded if it is the law to do so because they can tell you anything and will everytime put something different down on paper for you to sign.
good luck
we will often send a crew out to mark the proposed acquisition on the ground with paint and lath.
exactly how it would-be be done over here BUT after consulting the cli?®nt.
How can one negotiate without seeing on the ground what impact the project had on his property?
chr.
Sounds like you are gonna have to lawyer up. And it also harkens back to a comment I made last month; Who stands to gain from the construction of the bridge?
When people start with holding info such as you describe I get suspicious. Hell I'm suspicious at all times but more so when I sense I am being deceived and lied to.
Bridges are expensive public works projects and that county official you mentioned last month probably has a vested interest in this. Maybe he has some land in a shell corporation nearby and he plans to sell or develop unbeknownst and undisclosed to anyone.
We must have had about the same raisins. I'm suspicious anytime things don't make sense. There are some things at play but I can't put all the pieces together yet. I despise the phrase "lawyer up". Should be "lawyer down" because it can't be an upgrade....
Me. "What's the difference?"
T.C. Carroll "It's the difference between right and wrong!"
A thing that DOTs do, and some other design engineers do, is to want a constant grade. I've watch this obsession cause all kinds of havoc and the landowners don't figure it out till it's too late, sometimes they never do understand what happened. If it were me I would want to be sure the new location, grade, width isn't going to make a mess on my property. I've seen it happen. Make them show it to you and analyze what the new construction is going to do to your drainage.?ÿ
Stacy, about 10 years ago there was a huge push for what was being called the Northern Arc connecting many of the northern conties with a divided highway. It would have generally went from West Georgia on an arc through many northern counties and tie in in interstate 20 east and west to relieve traffic from having to go into Atlanta to go east or west.
There was a lot of shady deals and many DOT people and politicians bought up almost all the land that through an amazing set of coincidence and alignment of the stars fell right where the Northern Arc was designed to go. Utterly amazing how that happened.
It fell apart when that was exposed.
In the past, I have been involved with several GDOT Projects. As a Sub Consultant we were required to direct all request for information to a Point of Contact. The Designer may be reluctant to?ÿshare information before Preliminary Plan approval. This is very frustrating to the Property Owner and I will not (cannot) try to justify the process. I would suggest keeping detailed records of any correspondences you have with GDOT or the Designer. A proven pattern of not responding to reasonable request will put you in a stronger position to negotiate. When you are contacted by a R/W Agent, they usually will work hard to provide requested information, as it is a bad reflection on them to have too many cases go to condemnation. Usually, they will make at least three good faith attempts before filing condemnation. The offers tend to get better as you near condemnation. If you do decide to Lawyer up, find someone with experience in these matters. There are some who make a living doing this. I would wait until at least the second offer and see if they are going to be reasonable before giving the Lawyer 1/3. I hope you get what you want.
So the OP is actually not hypothetical...?