How is one survey better than another?

The amount of research done.
The number of ties to other property corners
The professional attitude of the crew
The professionalism and knowledge of the secretary or the office manager
Corners flagged
Property lines open and marked
Quality of the plat
Timely response to phone calls
A good explanation of what is required
Review of the plat by client and PLS

Just to name a few!!

Was all the evidence discovered?
Was the correct conclusions reached?
Was the correct boundary line(s) and property corner(s) found?

communication

If common field practices are followed, I don't believe a properly performed survey is necessarily 'better' than any other survey, as long as they represent the controlling information accurately.

We (land surveyors) are an opinionated bunch. It is way too easy to look over another surveyor's work and pass judgement. I've known surveyors that always take an adversarial approach to retracing another's work. For myself, I'm humble. I try to follow previous surveys with the idea that "I'm not as smart" as the guy I'm following, rather than "I'm smarter than this dumbass." It keeps my eyes open. If I can't figure out what he did, I need to look a little more..I'm probably missing something.

I will always have my opinions, but if my opinion is that "everybody else is always wrong", I'm fooling myself and hurting the industry in general. This perpetuates to the general public the idea that surveyors never come up with the same 'point'.

There was an older fellow around a few years ago that still did old school (20" gun and chain) work. Most of his surveys wound up on 8 1/2 x 11, hand drawn. I listened to a lot of people bad mouth him, but I never failed to follow what he had done in the field. And I agreed with most of it.

In comparison, there was also a huge consulting firm around here that produced beautiful 24x36 prints with all sorts of verbage and garbage on their surveys. You couldn't retract their work even if you had their PC with you. It was all baloney.

In my opinion I don't care how old a survey is, what equipment you use, how many employees you have, or even how damn smart you think you are...The true gauge of a survey is "Can you take a copy of it to the field and restore it? Did the last guy give you enough info on his survey to perpetuate the corners?"

I can only hope that mine pass muster.

Paden~ I agree 100% with you. I've seen work by older generation that did superb work and could follow and understand their reasoning and all on a 8.5x11, and of course I've seen the opposite. You do learn quickly who was good and who was bad. Of course we all have our mistakes and bad days. Mistakes and errors are easier to locate today than back in the day thanks to modern equipment. But that gets into a whole other topic.

Right on the money, Paden. :good: :good: :good:

JBS

>
> I can only hope that mine pass muster.

Well said-

I grew up with the mentality that every surveyor that was there before me was a better surveyor than I. And, if in the event I 'missed' one of their corners or points, it was something I did, and that I must have blundered or errored.

-And-

Knowing how to properly utilize the best tool in the truck is necessity.
That tool is a shovel.

6th..

An old friend of mine, he's retired now, was the "Chief of Parties" for, at times, a dozen crews or more. He used to tell his crews, "If you're not finding any pins, you're either not digging deep enough or looking in the wrong place."

True to this day.

Well said, Paden

:good:

Start off with the assumption the other guy did it right. Work out from there.

OK, first off I am a huge Paden fan, and I agree wholeheartedly with what you have stated.

I really hate to nit pick, especially on my buddies, but the question reads:

"...from the general public's viewpoint, assuming a registerd surveyor follows the state laws and statutes and delivers product on time, how is one survey better than another in a way that is significant"

Operative words, "from the general public's viewpoint"

This thread is about marketing and sales.

You're right, BL.

We as surveyors are required to pay a lot of attention to our measurements and procedures, etc. But sometimes none of that shows up on the survey. I'm not a "bells and whistles" kinda guy, but we do have to present a professional looking hard copy.

And even though the blood, sweat and tears we have twisted over to come to our conclusion may not appear on the survey, it still has to be there to be a proper survey and to protect the public's (our client's) interests.

I have a large client that uses a number of different surveyors. Any day at their office I might see 3 or 4 "other outfit's guys" heading in the door to deliver surveys. Being one of the smaller companies that does do work for them, I had to ask the 'old man' why he still gave me work.

His reply was," All you guys pretty much give us the same thing. Ascii files, cad drawings...and you're all pretty much in the same ball-park when it comes to prices. I just give work to the ones I like. And I like you. "

As I left there I realized I had stumbled across one of the basic truths of not only surveying, but business in general.

Maybe from the "general public's point of view" one survey might be better than another if the client had an "easy and respectable" experience with the surveyor.

Reduced to simplicity...

Can the property owner figure out on the ground, now and years later, where his property lines are from your survey? Good, stable, well-marked, easy to find and identify monuments are sooo important. We are not surveying for other surveyors, we are surveying for the general public.

> communication

Best response here.

I like the response from Paden Cash. But, the question seems to be meant for those other than surveyors, as a way to possibly distinguish between differing opinions or to decide how to retain the best service.

With that in mind, there are a couple of distinctions the public needs to know.

First, the "survey" could be considered the gathering of evidence by search and then measurement of some of that evidence. The "best" survey (as with all surveys, land or otherwise) is the one that gathers the most of the best available evidence. There are two components to this. First is the knowledge of what to look for and second is spending the time needed to perform the search. Both of these are directly related to the cost of the service provided. Those that have spent more time and money in a quest for knowledge in a specific area tend to charge more than those who have spent less. And, the extent of the search can be limited to a reasonable one that merely meets statutory requirements, or it can be an exhaustive one that goes beyond the minimal requirements. The client (general public) can have an impact on getting a "better" "survey" by retaining a surveyor based on levels of education and experience, reputation in the community (ask local attorneys, and people working at map filing in the county clerks office), and by fully communicating their needs and asking for the surveyors opinion of what will meet those needs. The client (general public) limits their chances of receiving the "better" "survey" when they retain services based on low price, or try to define the scope of the services themselves (which is essentially what low price also contributes to).

Second, the "survey map" is not usually a representation of the entire survey process. The "better" map is the one that more clearly expresses the results or ultimate findings or opinions of the surveyor. In the case of a difference of opinion between surveyors the "better" map is not a proof of which map the court will agree with, but can be an indication of the one that will prevail. Attention to detail and communication skills shown on a "better" map can be indicators of superior performance of number one above.

Third, the opinion expressed on the "survey map" is affected not only by number one above, but also by application of those findings to current law regarding the subject matter. Again, how to apply the findings and what the current laws are is a matter of knowledge and time. To sufficiently comply with minimum requirements takes much less time in general study of the subject matter and much less time on a particular project than an exhaustive study does. In the case of a difference of opinion the court will give more weight to opinions expressed by those who have more education and experience in the area. This doesn't mean these people are always correct. Sometimes it's a relative newcomer to the profession who presents the best opinion. The client should talk with and meet with those who they feel comfortable with after discussing their particular needs.

In short, there are no guarantees when retaining professional services. Higher initial price does not necessarily reflect a better service. However, the public can limit their risk by choosing wisely, based on substantive criteria, rather than going in with the idea that a "survey" is a commodity that can be bought and sold in a bidding process. The "better" survey is ultimately the one that stands the test of time. If you never find out if you received the "better" survey, then you have received the "best" surveying services because all conflicts (and there are always conflicts whether you are made aware of it or not) have been resolved before it becomes a matter for the courts to decide. However, even the "best" services of the "best" surveyor sometimes can't avoid conflicts progressing through the court system.

Now go out and make the "best" decision you can make on which surveyor to retain for your particular circumstances. The "best" "survey" is determined by the client up front.

> How is one survey better than another?

I have better teeth.

When I used to log a timber feller once gave me his take on reputation. I can't relay it here as his presentation included some inappropriate for public sharing comparisons. But bottom line is that one can be the best at what he does, but make a mistake and everyone will remember that mistake more than anything else.

In the civil engineering world, I have found that since mistakes are inevitable, the true character shows in how one addresses his or her mistakes. There are those that point fingers and make excuses, there are those who try to hide the mistake, and then there are those who accept their level of responsibility and address it with complete focus on the solution.

Recently I was reviewing a retracement survey done by a somewhat experienced surveyor. His survey accepted one older set of monuments over another. I asked him why, as the ones he did not accept appeared to be based on better evidence.

His reasoning was that the ones he accepted were set by a surveyor with a good reputation while the ones he rejected were set by a surveyor whose reputation was less than stellar.

Apparently the one surveyor had made some mistake or done some work seen as shoddy and his reputation then affected how this particular survey was viewed when compared to anothers even though his work appeared superior based on the available evidence.

Right or wrong, deserved or not, a surveyor's poor reputation can result in preconceived notions by future retracing surveyors that can skew what should be an unbiased evaluation of evidence.

Sorry Larry P. I kind of got off of the original question, but I thought this may have some relevance.

Although I can understand the logic, is a surveyors reputation in the mind of another surveyor evidence of boundary location? Would you list that in a survey narrative and cite applicable law to justify the opinion?

> Although I can understand the logic, is a surveyors reputation in the mind of another surveyor evidence of boundary location? Would you list that in a survey narrative and cite applicable law to justify the opinion?

LRDay,

Please re-read my post. You're asking me to justify an opinion that I'm not giving.
I never said it was evidence. I retold the story of another surveyor who had weighed evidence based on reputation only, and am cautioning against letting reputation result in preconceived notions about evidence superiority.

My post is meant as a caution, not support.

In addition to several comments made above, I add the following...

The last question my mentor would ask before sending out a survey was...

"Can we defend this survey in a Court of Law?"

I still ask myself that question on EVERY survey before it goes out the door....