Another post seemed to be getting derailed into this topic; so, I thought I'd post this as a question for discussion. So how do you know that a monument is?ÿan original, undisturbed monument?
Well, it won't be by the measurements. That's a guarantee. Not just from experience, either. Logic dictates that it can't be, for the following reasons:
1) Modern equipment makes measurement more precise and less prone to errors.
2) Evidence is always disappearing over time. So the corners that the original surveyor used are likely missing.
If I'm using different equipment and measuring to different monuments, why am I surprised by a different result?
There are likely many more reasons why an undisturbed, original monument will not match today's measurements; but, those seem like the most obvious.
So, how do you tell??ÿSome surveyor's won't like the answer, but: you talk to property owners.?ÿMost monuments?ÿhave a reputation (either good or bad). I like to do this before, I start measuring. Once you make that first measurement, it's becomes difficult to overcome the apparent mathematical discrepancies.
That is a good question and ONE of the answers would be experience following the surveyor who set the monument.?ÿ There was a surveyor here who set crimped top pipes.?ÿ His chaining was not really that accurate (I've often missed his distances by a tenth in 100 feet) but if he said he set a monument you'd better look.?ÿ I've had occasions to argue with attorneys who wanted me to set another monument because the measured distance was "long" when I found one of his crimped tops buried a foot deep in a yard.?ÿ "He can't sell what he doesn't own".?ÿ Another surveyor in the area always flagged his pins using both yellow and orange (NOT fluorescent) flagging.?ÿ Uncover one of those following his plat and you could be pretty sure it was original.?ÿ Of course we did have one owner of multiple large tracts that was known to move "original" monuments to locations that better suited him.
Andy
How do you know if a monument is in it's "original, undisturbed" location??ÿ?ÿ
Without some irrefutably detailed evidence one way or the other..you really don't know.?ÿ The answer to the question?ÿis good example of how we as surveyors 'build' our retracements and evaluate evidence.?ÿ?ÿWhile a found?ÿmonument's location should probably be initially accepted without obvious evidence to the contrary; other evidence?ÿwill?ÿeither corroborate?ÿits position?ÿor present indications to the contrary.?ÿ The answer to?ÿthe question rarely lies in the math.?ÿ
The answer does reside?ÿin a surveyors ability to weigh scintillated clues that separately mean little, but after preponderance of the entirety of found evidence a sound opinion of whether a corner has been disturbed or not can be formed and properly defended.
How do you know if a monument is in it's "original, undisturbed" location??ÿ?ÿ
The short answer is; you can't. The best you can do is speculate.?ÿ
A better question is; how do you know if a monument has moved? A lot of speculation going on here too. But a 1/2" rebar, sticking out of the ground a 1/2', with a cap smashed down; exposing the top of the rebar, near a new fence corner, a couple of feet away from where you think it should be.
Then yeah, it's probably been moved...
They have all moved, the question is how much and by what means.?ÿ That's the fun part of being a surveyor.
scrounging around around a creek bank, old timer came out and asked why.
"looking for a 1/2" iron pipe marking the lot line" etc. nice gent. I chewed his ear off, asking about local history.
I gave up and made some ties to fences, other stuff too. (swing ties and compass, solo)
went back to the office and drafted it up and ground out some search calcs on the Curta.
Next day I went back. Pulled a distance down the fence line with my pocket tape.
Two (2) pipes maybe a foot apart, in the fence line.: one a bit down and solid, but the other only firm and "fresh" dings on the top...
the gent returns and asks "did you find it?"
I explained how one "sure ain't it" and the other was clearly the right one.
he grinned big and said "just trying to help"
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1) Modern equipment makes measurement more precise and less prone to errors.
More precise, OK. Less prone to errors, hmmmm, maybe not so much.?ÿ
My habit is to organize the chronological written record first. That tells me what to expect at a given corner and if the evidence matches the pedigree. Beyond that each corner is its own story. The series of if/thens is too great to quantify in a thread...
I was on a job once, as a rodman, looking for a IP.?ÿ Digging it up, I found and tossed aside an old whiskey bottle on top of the countersunk pin.?ÿ The PLS there, picked it up and said " I bet so and so was the Surveyor here doing the original township survey".?ÿ We looked at the copy of the Platt, and sure enough his name was on it.?ÿ the PLS then listed about 6 Surveyors, and their preferred "beverage" when working.?ÿ Just from years of following them, and finding there old "lunches".
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That was an undisturbed monument.
I can make determinations all day long on whether the corner is in it's 'original, undisturbed' location, or not,?ÿbased on all of the evidence , but at the end of the day it's?ÿthe property owners who share that corner that are the ones that have to accept and honor it's location.?ÿ
Once or twice I've recovered original corners and had them disappear in the night when they upset one of the adjoiners who had other ideas of where their lines were.
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
Sorry in advance for the flippant reply, but how do you know that anything is real??ÿ You form an opinion by a preponderance of the evidence.?ÿ I disagree that you can't tell by measurements.?ÿ Of course you use measurements.?ÿ Measurements are part of the evidence.?ÿ Just as if a monument you find matching the original call, whether it looks like it's been moved, whether you have more modern surveyor's measurements to it, etc.?ÿ Look @ all the evidence.?ÿ Don't throw out evidence based on the "rules of construction".?ÿ Look @ everything as a whole.
"More precise, OK. Less prone to errors, hmmmm, maybe not so much."
In the "old" days, I was bad to reverse numbers when writing them down. I've never considered myself dyslexic; but, I sure was glad to see that first?ÿdata collector. For me, it did reduce my errors.
Speculation is what gets us in trouble.?ÿ
As others have stated, you gather and evaluate evidence to form your professional opinion.?ÿ
HMMMM... WHO SETS THEM LIKE THIS.....
YPC IS STILL INTACT.... ONLY ABOUT 5" IN THE GROUND..... LEANING ABOUT 25 ^ OUT OF PLUMB....
NOT A "NORMAL" SETTING FOR THE INDIVIDUAL WHOSE # IS ON THE CAP....
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?ÿLooks like Frost heave to me, if that is checks in close to its estimated position.?ÿ And, of course, temperatures dip down enough where the ground freezes.?ÿ In your state, is it considered proper to dig for a rust hole, and accept where it goes straight down as evidence of a legal monument??ÿ If there isn't one, I would assume it was removed and placed there when they planted the fence corner.
Speculation is what gets us in trouble.?ÿ
... opinion.?ÿ
Isn't that the same as speculation?
If it isn't fact; then it's either opinion or speculation...
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We need to think of every job we do, like it will end up in court...
@ Rankin_File
Is the rebar inside or outside of the wire?
I have found the monument with cap intact used to tighten the brace wire.
Yesterday I found 4 original undisturbed monuments left to survey the client's property. None of them were to his property. All his were apparently removed and replaced by xties 20+ years ago and all are leaning somewhat and completely overgrown with briars and poison oak.
The question of what we find as being an original monument or not is our call and that comes from our experience of what we have seen, the customs of the surveyors we have followed, the apparent residual evidence of the monument itself and what we can and cannot prove otherwise......
0.02
C'mon now kids! The answer is so obvious that everybody missed it.
Of course, I am talking about calling our most favorite Texas surveyor to dig up the monument and do his deep analysis of soil conditions, monument conditions, online research, court house digging, everything, to find the most precise answer.
A quick google search for "Favorite Texas Surveyor" turned up a couple photos:
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See anyone familiar?
The normal rebuttable?ÿ presumption is the monuments have not moved unless there is sufficient evidence that it has moved. In other words, The burden of proof is shifted to the surveyor who is of the opinion that the monument has moved. The presumption can be overcome, of course, given sufficient evidence. If there is a tie in the evidence that it has and has not moved then it is proper to say it has not moved
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